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To: Fruitbat

"But otherwise, you are correct, we do not have the insight into their hearts as such."

Its not so much as that, IMO we dont have insight into God. People like to naysay and condemn but I beleive in a loving God and there are many many good people in this country today.

When we get to the same point as the Dutch then I will worry.


170 posted on 06/12/2006 7:22:11 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: driftdiver
Its not so much as that, IMO we dont have insight into God. People like to naysay and condemn but I beleive in a loving God and there are many many good people in this country today.

When we get to the same point as the Dutch then I will worry.

God is not seeking "good people." He seeks people that will follow and heed Him. People are by nature sinful and that applies to all.

In conversations with people I often divide things. Many say 'how can you judge him, the Bible says not to judge.' Well, yes, the Bible says not to judge anyone, lest ye be judged. But this applies to as "in God's eyes" as you touch on.

We shouldn't judge the things that God judges, namely the heart. But we absolutely should have laws and be able to judge people therein and in general otherwise. I'm certainly going to judge someone for societal purposes and in the interests of my family that just got released from prison for child molestation. I don't want them anywhere near my wife or kids, and that's judging someone. So there are two standards, "as society/people go," which you suggest, and "as God is concerned."

God destroyed the world in Noah's day b/c he "regretted having made man" b/c man had become so evil and sinful. Chapter 6 of Genesis outlines this. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. I wasn't around in Noah's day, :D, but I have a difficult time believing that vast parts of our world today, even our nation, are not as evil/sinful, as God measures "evil and sin," not us, as they were in Noah's day.

Since our standard for "good" seems to slide year-by-year, perhaps even monthly or weekly now, I believe that much of what we consider as "good" today would have been "not so good" in a former day, even perhaps only ten or twenty years ago. Euthanasia is getting closer to becoming a routine practice. The homosexual agenda has made enormous inroads into our and the world's societies. Bestiality is actually beginning to be discussed in a real way. We're moving at full speed on the slippery slope of morality, or perhaps lack thereof.

Some of the behavior and wilings of people these days goes on seemingly not affecting us in observation, yet 50 years ago it would have been viewed as lewd, utterly inappropriate, perhaps even gravely sinful.

But hey, this is what those pushing that behavior want/wanted. Does it make God happy? Not likely. Yet, it is fully acceptible in modern society.

I got into a brief debate about 20 years ago after watching Madonna come out on stage on some awards show in the primetime (8-9pm) hour in lingerie; garters, stockings, other scant items, and perform a thrusting demo for the world to see.

My point in the debate was that his was merely as stepping stone pushing the envelope a bit further in society. The person that I was debating laughed and facetiously stated that "yeah, this will cause the crumbling of morality in society." To which my response was that it would not single-handedly cause it, but that it was yet just another stepping stone creating the path into the center of the garden of evil and sin. They thought that my sentiment was absurd and ridiculous.

Based on what I've read in the Bible, God considers this to be evil and direly sinful behavior as he would someone watching it with any degree of lust. We can dismiss that in our (society's) "reinvention" of God and who He is, as if he's a pile of clay that we can shape into whatever we want to.

Yet, today, just look at how far we've advanced on that and hastened the building of that path. Nudity, depravity, licentousness, homosexual behavior, innuendo, and even outright projections of homosexual behavior, divorce, abortion, corruption and dishonesty culture-wide, etc., litter our moral landscape.

Is God happy and pleased by this? I dare say not. Then again, if one does not believe in the God of the Bible, then perhaps whomever people believe that God is is happy, but they are not then measuring according to reality, eh. They're measuring according to fantasy, a fantasy that they've conjured up in their minds as to who God really is. But He who made us from "a lump of clay" is not a lump of clay Himself to be shaped by that which He made!

As such, there are two standards. There is a moveable and non-concrete standard that is created by either a willing and active or passively complicit majority of people. This is also, indirectly, why James Madison maintained that our nation and its Constitution could only be viable for as long as its majority was "moral." He had in mind the more immovable concrete morality, not the one that society dictates, much as in Noah's time, clearly.

This is also why as one leaves the U.S., as sinful as it may be before God, the even more sinful before God it gets given that most other major nations around the globe have gone out of their way to see to it that God, the Living God of Jews and Christians, is removed in every way from their societies. They (Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc., not to mention Madison, Jefferson, etc.) all realized that God brings freedom as outlined in our DoI and supported elsewhere in the founding fathers' writings. It is also why the first order of business is to remove any real allusions to God from society. Eastern Europe, even today following nearly half-a-century of Soviet rule, China, Russia, N. Korea, muslim nations, and all other totalitarian and/or fascist societies do not allow the open worship, aka "freedom of religion" that is the basis for the formation and sustenance of our nation. That's not by accident.

On somewhat of a sidenote, this is also why our allowing Islam to permeate our nation, if God will bring about "judgement" on us, it will likely be as it is in Europe now, by our abandoning of "really," not "superficially," following Him and heeding His doctrines. Ever wonder why the world is a itshhole, or tending that way, everywhere that God is removed yet seems to thrive where He is the foundation of such a society?

Anyhoo, so yes, by-and-large we are a "good" people. But we do not know the heart of God in some ways as you state. But we do know it fully in others if we've read the Scriptures for it is contained throughout them to give us a most clear and not uncertain picture of exactly that morality. Divorce for example is considered to be immoral for the most part and for reasons by which today that the vast majority of divorces in our country are executed. Yet we, mere mortals, LOL, would consider most of these people to be "good people," and by our standards they are. This is just one example among hundreds of not thousands by-the-way.

As well, no one can be vindicated of all sin societally. We are all sinners. Only God, via the blood of Christ in exchange for us paying a price of eternal separation from Him, can vindicate us of sin before Him.

Anyway, it's important to maintain the two distinctions in discussions of this nature.

181 posted on 06/12/2006 8:12:40 AM PDT by Fruitbat (I)
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