AVweb Newswire - the absurdity continues

AVweb.com ^ | October 11, 2001 | staff

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Four Weeks. And Counting.

How Do You Spell Relief?...

Nonsense. Ridiculous. Ludicrous. Lunacy. These are just four of the printable descriptions applied by pilots and aircraft owners throughout the country in response to the continued grounding of general aviation near major U.S. cities. As the fourth week since the terrorist attacks of September 11 ended and a new one began, the industry's alphabet soup of trade associations briefly stopped to catch its collective breath and look back at those four weeks, the challenges they brought and those ahead. Then, in meetings on Capitol Hill, a joint press conference in downtown Washington and untold numbers of phone calls, letters and emails, the general aviation industry explored options, sought information and asked questions. Foremost among the unanswered queries: What are the security risks the National Security Council (NSC) is apparently concerned about, and how can industry and the pilot community address them? So far, there has been no clear answer. Admittedly, the NSC presumably has other things on its mind, among them the safety, security and effectiveness of another group of aircraft, the ones conducting air strikes in Afghanistan. Nevertheless, the fourth week of the (Not-so-) Great GA Grounding of 2001 ended without an end to the industry's efforts, frustration or economic losses and without definitive information on whether -- or when -- the relaxation of airspace and operational restrictions might continue.

...Here's The Problem...

There are two basic airspace restrictions still being imposed. The first involves "emergency air traffic rules" in effect within 18 nm of the JFK and DCA VOR/DME facilities and within 15 nm of the BOS VORTAC. Within these three areas, no Part 91 operations are allowed, with the sole exception of IFR Part 91 operations to Boston's Logan International Airport. This is despite the much-celebrated "reopening" of Washington's National Airport, but only to a reduced number of scheduled air carrier operations and then under extremely tight security. Outside of these three areas -- out to 25 nm at JFK and DCA and to the limit of "Enhanced Class B airspace" at BOS -- limited Part 91 operations are allowed. These operations are restricted to either IFR flights, which must file a flight plan no less than one hour before a planned takeoff, and to VFR flight training in piston-powered aircraft with certificated maximum gross takeoff weights of 4,000 pounds or less.

The other set of restrictions involves the so-called "Enhanced Class B airspace" (ECB) in effect at 27 other locations in the U.S. as well as around New York, Washington and Boston. Inside ECB airspace, VFR flight operations by Part 91 aircraft -- with some exceptions -- are not allowed, although IFR operations are more or less routine. Within these areas, the authorized exceptions to VFR operations include only pipeline/powerline patrol operations and flight training -- including supervised student solo flights -- in piston-powered aircraft weighing 6,000 pounds or less. Additionally, specific kinds of Part 91 operations -- news gathering, traffic watch, banner towing, "commercial" sightseeing, and airship/blimp flights -- are not authorized. For operations under other portions of the Federal Aviation Regulations and post-maintenance test flights, various other rules too numerous to mention are involved.

...Quick, Call A Plumber

The restrictions imposed on aircraft based near Washington and New York were temporarily set aside over the holiday weekend as the FAA allowed aircraft trapped in the areas closed to Part 91 operations by temporary flight restrictions to make a one-way, tightly controlled flight out of the so-called "no-fly" zones around the two cities. Beginning Saturday and concluding Tuesday, the FAA allowed owners and operators to depart their base airports and reposition their aircraft to facilities outside of these areas. Still, there was the usual confusion and last-minute changes to the rules we've all come to expect of late. The so-called "flush" operations were conducted under strict security, with mandatory flight plans and transponder codes, ATC clearances and close monitoring by individual airport management, the FAA and, of course, the military. According to the FAA, some 300 aircraft were relocated from within the "no-fly" zones around Washington and New York. How many aircraft remain behind, when the birds-without-a-home might be able to return, and what will happen to the affected airports all are unanswered questions.

NOTE: For the complete text of these and related NOTAMs of critical importance to aviation safety within U.S. airspace, be sure to check AVweb's compilation.

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So, What Have You Done For Me Lately?

No, This Is NOT Normal...

Despite what some -- especially the general media, White House staff and most members of Congress -- may conclude is a return to normal, for thousands of aircraft operators around the country these restrictions are not business as usual and indicate that things have not returned to normal. Aside from the glaring inconsistencies with these restrictions -- for example, student solo operations are allowed, but not flights by certificated pilots -- which are causing many to question the wisdom of decision-makers who decide other issues, they are having a major, perhaps unrecoverable impact on the general aviation industry in the U.S. Losses to the industry since September 11 are conservatively estimated by the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA) at $400 million and are growing each day. Consider, also, that some 41,000 aircraft of all shapes and sizes are being impacted by these restrictions, according to AOPA. To put another number on it all, place a conservative average value of $25,000 on each of those 41,000 aircraft and punch the numbers into your calculator. The result? More than $1 billion of personal property has been restricted or rendered useless. Some say this is being done without a good reason; others believe there is a good reason -- the industry just isn't being told what it is. But all agree it is most certainly being done without any hope of compensation. And there's still no end in sight.

...Telling The Story...

These and other points were the subject of a well-attended, joint press conference conducted Tuesday by GAMA, AOPA and the National Business Aviation Association at GAMA's headquarters in downtown Washington, D.C. Present were the usual suspects from the trade press but also representatives from many of the major news outlets, including camera crews from CNN and Fox News, among others. The press conference was called to ensure that those inside and outside the industry know that GA is not happy with the current status quo and to provide faces and local stories of the restrictions' impact. Among the points made at the press conference: Even though Washington National Airport is open for business, other segments of aviation remain grounded; the groundings are having an impact beyond the airline industry; that impact is slowly but surely rippling its way up from the smallest to the largest aviation businesses, including airframe manufacturers like Cessna, which has laid off some 250 workers. Representatives from The New Piper Aircraft Inc. couldn't attend the press conference because their war-risk insurance isn't in place yet and they couldn't fly a company aircraft to Washington. The other story is this: Even though Congress took great pains to limit GA product liability in 1994 with the General Aviation Revitalization Act, and those actions have resulted in some of the industry's best sales numbers ever, the damage being done now could easily undo those achievements and send everyone back to the dark days of the late 1980s and early 1990s.

...Congress (Finally) Gets Into The Act...

Those gathered for Tuesday's event announced that primary focus is on support of two key measures pending before Congress: H.R. 3007, introduced by U.S. Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA), and S. 1512, by pilot and U.S. Senator James Inhofe (R-OK), the latter of which has also been offered as an amendment to the "Aviation Security Act" now pending before Congress. As AVweb previously reported, the Shuster bill would authorize the Small Business Administration to provide grants and other financial benefits to those businesses affected by the terrorist attacks. Presuming there are any left, of course.

Meanwhile, the Inhofe bill would address one of the root problems with this ongoing financial fiasco: communication between industry and government regarding the perceived security threats posed by GA and what can be done about them. Despite a related statement last week from the EAA, many in aviation's alphabet soup say they still don't have any definitive, official information on what the NSC's problems and concerns are with respect to relaxing Part 91 restrictions. Until they do, they reasonably maintain that trying to come up with solutions when they don't know what the problems are is counterproductive. Inhofe's bill/amendment would try to fix this: By requiring an immediate report from the White House to the two Congressional intelligence committees (no jokes, please...) consisting of descriptions of all airspace restrictions imposed in the national airspace as a result of the September 11 terrorist attacks and their justification. Presumably, this information can then be used to develop and send detailed recommendations back to the White House and the NSC that address these concerns. The ultimate result would be establishing rules and policies that respond to and minimize these security concerns while allowing normal flight operations to return. Whether the Inhofe bill/amendment is adopted or not, hopefully the message that the GA industry wants to be part of the solution and not part of the problem will finally get through to the decision-makers responsible for the autumn of our discontent. Indeed, this week the National Air Transportation Association announced its full support of the measure and put out a notice to its members to contact Congress on the bill's behalf.

...And What YOU Can Do

Last week, AOPA issued a nationwide call asking its members to call, fax, write and email their federal elected officials to explain the impact of these restrictions and seek answers for the many unknown questions. Those efforts seem to be bearing fruit, as the Shuster and Inhofe bills demonstrate. Additionally, many others in Congress have taken it upon themselves to initiate contacts with the White House and/or the NSC to try to figure out if this issue is even on the radar screen -- figuratively speaking, of course -- and what the problem is. Perhaps most notable among them, according to AOPA, is a joint letter from the Maryland congressional delegation, as well as a growing collection of similar entreaties from other officials. Even though those efforts seem to be bringing results, there's no reason not to continue contacting Congress and asking your representatives to join them. In particular, ask your senators to support the Inhofe bill, S. 1512, and the identical amendment to the Aviation Security Act, S. 1447. On the House side, ask for support of Bill Shuster's H.R. 3007 to provide much-needed financial relief to impacted businesses. The industry you save may be your own.

NOTE: AVweb Executive Editor Joseph E. (Jeb) Burnside contributed this report.

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Aerial Applicators Under The Microscope

Crop-Dusters Take Financial Hit, And More...

Agricultural aviation took a pretty good knock after last month's terrorist attacks, and the fallout is probably just beginning. The direct financial ramifications of being intermittently grounded by the FAA over the last four weeks are still unclear. For many aerial applicators and growers, it was more than just mildly inconvenient. Cotton defoliation was in full swing across most of the Cotton Belt, and boll-weevil eradication sprays were ongoing. In Florida, California and other Western states, vegetable growers who rely on timely applications to prevent damage to their crops scrambled to line up ground rigs to fill the void. According to the American Crop Protection Association, more than half of all commercial applications of pesticides are made by air, and a lot of those pesticide applications are fairly time-sensitive. A delay of a day or two can potentially wreak havoc on a crop, particularly vegetables. Fortunately, the ban on aerial application was relatively short-lived, and the immediate impact on agriculture and aerial applicators was rather minor, all things considered. But the long-term impact of stricter regulation could prove even worse than the short-term economic loss.

...As Restrictive Regulations Loom...

In an industry already intensely regulated and restricted by dozens of government agencies, the prospect of even more onerous oversight is discouraging at best. A sign of what's to come: Florida lawmakers are crafting legislation that would require detailed monitoring by the state of crop-dusting activities. Linda Rucks, secretary of the Florida Agricultural Aviation Association (FAAA), told AVweb about some of the changes ahead. "We're working now with the Florida Department of Agriculture to establish a protocol for reporting to them each day before we actually fly -- where we're going to be working and what we're going to be doing and what airplanes we're going to be flying," she said. "This is all information we have to have on file anyway, due to regulations that are already in place, but now we'll have to fill out a form and get that information to the Florida Department of Agriculture before we actually go fly. It's definitely going to involve a lot more paperwork and time to comply." In spite of the added red tape the new regulations will impose, Rucks says the FAAA is working in a cooperative spirit with the state. "We understand everyone's concern and we've been working with the Florida Department of Agriculture to address those concerns and still have some input into the process," she told AVweb.

...And P.R. Takes Three Steps Backwards

Besides the financial and regulatory burden, the situation has turned into a public-relations fiasco. If you think general aviation is misunderstood by the public, just add a tank and a spray boom and start dispersing pesticides. "The industry has struggled to educate the public and let them know that we're professional," Rucks said. "We're trained, licensed, certified, tested and retested. We're working with state-of-the art equipment and materials that are very expensive. We're providing a vital tool to the agricultural industry. We've been trying to educate the public so that they have a little better understanding. We felt like we were succeeding somewhat until all of this happened. Now, I'm afraid we're going to have to start all over again. When the public sees an airplane or a helicopter buzzing around, they get nervous. Even with mosquito control, we get calls about that all the time. Now, there's going to be that added apprehension. I think we're going to have to work very hard to overcome that." In the meantime, the National Agricultural Aviation Association has posted security recommendations on its Web site, and is busy trying to advance its agenda on Capitol Hill. With about 5,000 licensed aerial applicators, the industry is small, but it plays a vital role in the production of food and fiber. Hopefully, we won't regulate it out of existence.

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Rattled Nerves Everywhere

Puffs Of Smoke Scare Citizens Silly...

This one gets the Chicken Little award. Sixty residents of Folsom, Calif., called police last weekend after they saw an airplane flying in circles emitting clouds of white smoke. One woman even went to the hospital to see if she had contracted a noxious airborne substance from the event, fearing that if she went home she might infect her family. Local police, the FBI and Sacramento firefighters swarmed over Mather Airport after the FAA tracked the aircraft there. Authorities shut down the airport, a former Air Force base, while they investigated, according to a story in the Sacramento Bee. What they found: Stunt pilot Julie Clark had been testing some new injectors on the smoke system of the T-34 she flies in airshows -- puffing red, white and blue smoke while Lee Greenwood's tune "God Bless the USA" is played for the crowd. Clark was getting the 1956 Beechcraft trainer ready for a Veterans Day performance. The local authorities did not find that her practice violated any regulations, but turned the matter over to the FAA just in case. She told the Bee she'll practice someplace a little less populated from now on -- and notify the FBI ahead of time.

...While Airline Pilots And Cabin Crews Are Tense...

The folks of Folsom are not the only ones whose nerves are on edge. Last week, a United Airlines trip from Orlando to Dulles was canceled after the flight crew refused to fly, according to NewsChannel2000. Federal sky marshals took a man off the airplane to question him because his name was similar to one on an FBI list of suspected terrorist accomplices. The marshals determined he was not the man they were looking for, and allowed him back on board, but the pilots apparently were not convinced. This week, the Wall Street Journal reported that cabin crews are feeling vulnerable now that cockpit doors will soon be reinforced. The Association of Flight Attendants is pushing for self-defense training and wants attendants to be armed with pepper spray, mace or stun guns. So much for complaining about cold coffee...

...And False Alarm Closes Cleveland Airport

A security device designed to detect explosives in baggage triggered an alarm Monday at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, in Ohio, shutting the facility down for three hours and delaying hundreds of flights -- some for up to five hours. A woman proceeding through Concourse C, operated by Continental Airlines, was randomly selected to have her baggage scanned with the specialized equipment. Before security personnel realized the scan was positive, the woman had picked up the bag and continued down the concourse. Officials tracked her down and screened the bag again. The second time, it came up negative. Preferring not to take chances, however, Continental Airlines evacuated the C and D concourses and conducted a full sweep of the area, which included search efforts by the FBI, FAA, Cleveland police, airline personnel and bomb-sniffing dogs. After questioning the pax and finding nothing suspicious anywhere, the concourses were later reopened.

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[SNIP]

Briefs...

Italy's Worst Aviation Disaster Kills 118

In early-morning fog on Monday, an SAS MD-87 airliner on takeoff roll collided with a Cessna Citation II that had taxied onto the active runway at Milan's Linate Airport. The MD-87 veered into a hangar and caught fire. The Citation was carrying two German pilots and two Italian businessmen. The MD-87 was carrying 104 pax and six crewmembers. Four people on the ground were also killed. The Italian government blamed the accident on human error compounded by poor visibility. Although the airport is equipped with ground radar, it was not operational at the time of the accident.

AOPA Insurance Agency Asks Insurers To Share The Pain

The AOPA Insurance Agency (AOPAIA) asked five major aviation insurance companies to grant a break to aircraft owners whose aircraft are grounded within Enhanced Class B airspace. Specifically, AOPAIA wants insurance companies to give a one-time credit of 10 percent of the annual premium on the grounded aircraft, noting that risk is reduced when the aircraft can't fly. Under the proposal, aircraft operators would be eligible for the credit simply by verifying that their aircraft is based at an airport located within Enhanced Class B airspace and therefore unable to operate. At AVweb, we'd be pleasantly surprised if this one gets off the ground, though AOPAIA says it has gotten some favorable response to its proposal. We kind of expect insurance rates are too accustomed to going in the other direction.

Warbirds Still Endangered

Even while the "main event" of GA's grounding continues to occupy the industry's relations with the federal government, a major "sideshow" is still ongoing: Legislation that could mean the literal destruction of hundreds of valuable, irreplaceable warbirds is still pending in Congress. The provision to "demilitarize" former military property is found in Section 1062 of S. 1438, the Department of Defense Authorization Bill, which passed the Senate on October 2. A similar bill passed by the House on September 25, H.R. 2586, does not contain the so-called "demil" provision. The problem is that the seemingly innocuous provision is written in such broad language that it could result in the required seizure and destruction of surplus property already in private hands. Presently, the bill is set to be the subject of a joint conference committee between the House and the Senate, although the conference committee members have not been named at this writing and a schedule for the committee to meet has not been announced. The EAA and its Warbirds of America division is closely monitoring the situation and asking their members and others to contact Congress to ask that the House version of this bill be enacted, at least as far as this "demil" provision is concerned.

Debate Rages Over Fixing Airport Security

Not too many people deny that airport security screening is a joke. Even security personnel have gone on national television within recent months elaborating on how inept the system really is. What no one agrees on is how to fix it. A bill now in the Senate would turn over airport security screening to the federal government instead of allowing that service to be contracted out to private companies. The White House originally objected to that idea, favoring a system in which private screening companies would be placed under federal oversight. Last week, however, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said he would go along with the Senate's plan if restrictions on disciplining and firing federally employed screeners were waived.

[SNIP]

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On The Fly...

Chicago's embattled Meigs Field -- the poster-child for GA's airport preservation efforts -- reopens today after a one-month hiatus in the wake of the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Reasons for the one-month delay have not been detailed beyond the all-encompassing "security" issues, even though similar security concerns were reconciled at other U.S. airports weeks earlier. Chicago's mayor has wanted to close the airport for years in favor of yet another bird sanctuary there, the 11th in the Chicago Park District...

The DC Rally for Aviation, scheduled for Sunday, October 14, has changed venue. Instead of in front of the Capitol, the rally will be held at noon at College Park Airport, the nation's longest-serving airfield, which is currently shut down by the Washington Temporary Flight Restriction. College Park Airport is found at 1909 CPL Frank S. Scott Drive...

A Cessna 208 Caravan crashed in Alaska yesterday, killing nine and leaving one critically hurt. The Caravan was operated by commuter airline PenAir, and went down in clear weather about two miles after takeoff...

New rules implemented Monday restrict airline pax to one carry-on bag and another small bag such as a purse, camera bag or briefcase. DOT recommended the action last week in order to enable screeners at security checkpoints to more thoroughly inspect carry-on baggage. The directive also calls for more searches with hand-wand metal detectors and stepped-up scrutiny of pax fitting a certain description that is supposedly confidential. Wow, that's a tough one to figure out...

Pax aboard American Airlines Flight 1238 restrained a fellow passenger after he forced his way into the cockpit on Monday. The man, described as mentally ill, was traveling with his father, who had already alerted the flight crew that he was acting strangely. Two F-16 fighters intercepted the flight and escorted it to Chicago where it landed safely at O'Hare. None of the nine crewmembers or 153 pax was hurt, but nerves were a bit rattled...

Something similar happened Wednesday aboard Delta Air Lines Flight 357 when an American-citizen passenger said to have a "history of mental illness" passed a note to a flight attendant shortly after the captain announced a deviation for weather. The note reportedly said that the pilot should not change course. The flight attendant felt uncomfortable about the note's contents, brought it to the captain's attention and the flight subsequently diverted to Shreveport, La., with two F-16 fighters in escort.  No injuries...

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[snopercod]

In America, first they came for the pilots. But I wasn't a pilot, so I didn't speak out...

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penguin bump

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That's curious. Those inserted graphics worked a minute ago...

[Robert357]

Nice collection of articles, but the real question, is...'why have AWAC-like planes been brought over from Europe to fly the skies of the US?.

The original AWAC and its subsequent airframe and enhanced electronic children were designed to direct and manage the shooting down of hostile aircraft. You have to ask yourself, why were these very expensive to operate planes moved to N. American Airspace and flying our skies? The obvious answer is that the military feels a need to be able to detect the location of and direct an fighter attack on some form of aircraft, whether it is a commercial jet, crop-duster, or civilian general aviation plane. If the military has some intelligence information they are not sharing that says they may need to shoot something out of the skies pretty soon, would it make sense to restrict civilian/general aviation? Yes, it would in my book.

There is a very significant something that we are not being told about. Fighters flying patrol over major cities and AWAC-like planes on patrol are there for reasons. The absurdity continues, because what is happening is not absurd if there was an honest sharing of intelligence information. Depending upon what that information is, it may be totally appropriate for the government to keep the details of the information secret.

Therefore, while the civilian aviation industry is being harmed, there may be a reason for this. I would not be a bit surprised to see the U.S. mail slowed down for a while especially when it comes to the delivery of overseas mail. These are very unusual times and call for unusual measures.

[lynn madison]

I, too, agree that a temporary ban on certain kind of flights is not the death knell to individual rights that many think it is. But, as I said in another thread, the other part of the deal is that the government, who imposed that ban, needs to do everything possible to make sure the ban can be lifted quickly. This means our government must conduct a real war, using the weapons necessary to achieve victory quickly, and with the fewest American casualities possible. And given the new anthrax scare, nukes may become the weapon of choice, and may have to be dropped in more places than Afghanistan in order to achieve the desired result.

The upshot? Given that the current administration doesn't seem to be conducting a serious enough war to intimidate terrorists, then it isn't justified in restricting our rights. But, in principle, I do not see a problem with certain freedoms being suspended in times of war.

[snopercod]

If the military has some intelligence information they are not sharing that says they may need to shoot something out of the skies pretty soon, would it make sense to restrict civilian/general aviation? Yes, it would in my book.

Then why are student pilots allowed to fly in the prohibited areas, but not licensed pilots? Do you think that these terrorists are too dumb to pose as student pilots if they wanted to bomb Disney World? Hell, I have heard lots of student pilots with middle eastern accents on the radio in the Orlando area. They can still fly, but I can't. Maybe this makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me or anybody else in the flying community.

Have you considered that these restrictions may have been a total knee-jerk response by the non-pilots of the National Secuity Council, and those folks have just banned flying for political - not anti-terrorism - reasons? They probably got a focus group of hysterical housewives together and asked them "What scares you?". "All those little airplanes up there!!!", they bleated in unison. "Fine, well ban those. What else?"

And what's all this bull$hit about "we're not going to give up our freedom" in response to terrorism. It seems that if the terrorists want to bring America to a standstill, all they have to do is to send one threatening letter or e-mail per week to the appropriate people, and out government will - like puppets on a string - shut down whatever the terrorists want.

Want to shut down agriculture? Threaten to spray Anthrax with a crop-duster. Doesn't matter whether that is feasable or not, the sheeple think it is, so let's ban crop duster flights.

Want to kill off the NFL? Threaten to attack the Super Bowl...

And where the hell is the press on the grounding of their "Eye-in-the-Sky" news helicopters? Not one peep out of that bastion of free speech. Does it not bother anybody that should another "incident" occur in a big city, that we will all have to rely on government reports for informaton, since the newsies won't be able to get to the scene?

And does it not bother anybody that petitioning one's representatives about all this (or anything else the government does) is practically impossible, since only a limited number of flights are available to DC - and those are reserved for government people?

Did you read [above] that the protest over these draconian general aviation regulations had to be moved out of DC because nobody could even get there? Amazing.

Hell, the terrorists have already won as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you life is "normal", but you have to realize that there are good folks out here who have been devastated - and probably for no particular reason.

Like the author of this article said, "Tell general aviation what the threat is [if any], and we'll go along". Personally, I don't think there IS any threat - the feds are just doing this to pacify the Rosie O'Donnell hysterical housewives out there.

And while I'm ranting...I'm sure you're aware that in most of the world, vehicle bombs are the most common form of terrorist attack. So how would you like it if the feds announced, "We have a credible threat of a car bomb attack in [your city]. Therefore, until further notice, all motor vehicles must be kept in their garages. Deadly force is authorized against any motor vehicle seen on the streets of [your city]. Food delivery trucks will be permitted on the condition that a drive-plan be filed with the DOT one hour in advance of the trip, the location of the vehicle is tracked by the authorities at all times, and a Federal Marshall is present in the right seat."

This is exactly what the feds have done to honest, law-abiding pilots. But of course they won't do that to car/bus/truck drivers - even if they had a credible threat - because there would be a public uproar and the ba$tards who did it would be voted out of office.

But they feel safe to tyrannize us pilots, because there are not enough of us to carry any political weight.

That's what America - the country that used to protect minorities - has come to: Law by focus group.

[Publius6961]

The cost to the U.S. of the Sept. 11 Mass Murder goes far beyond the 5000+ lives at the WTC.
The millions of dollars of immediate increase in the cost of air travel, the restrictions to our freedoms in countless other ways we have yet to see, and the pervasive fear are only now beginning to be seen.

How long will it take for our governement and most Americans to see that the only way to minimize the permanent damage to the country is to eliminate Political Correctness and to institute immediate and clear distinctions between the rights of Citizens and non-citizens.

It goes without saying that any fraudulent oath or pledge taken in the process of obtaining citizenship would invalidate naturalization of any foreign-born citizen and make them subject to immediate deportation, regardless of when it was obtained.
Any children of such persons or any other foreigner regardless of where they might be born, similarly should be subject to a new naturalization process.

Anything less will bankrupt the country with "preventive" and "protective" measures, remove most or all of our freedoms, and accelerate our slide into chaos and oblivion.

[Robert357]

You have good points, the best is tell the general aviation folks what the problem is and they will help out.

.....They can still fly, but I can't. Maybe this makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me or anybody else in the flying community....

Are there any restrictions on those student pilots, such as having to have an instructor in the plane? Are they required to do anything different than you could do? I would like to know. If the FBI is looking for truck bombs, there could be a threat of a civilian plane loaded with explosives as well. I don't know what is going on, but you may be able to explain things better to me as to what is going on.

That is exactly why I was hoping that there could be some collective brainpower put on why were the AWAC plane brought over from Europe? My feeling is that the FBI in tracing the potential pilot-terrorists in the US has a few that are "unaccounted for." Either that or they have some specific target information and threats that they don't want to get out.

Have you considered that these restrictions may have been a total knee-jerk response by the non-pilots

Yes, I have and it is possible, but I keep asking myself then why are armed fighters patrolling over US and Canadian large cities and why were the AWAC planes brought to the US from Europe. I can see the FAA or the NSTB doing a knee jerk on civilian aviation, but I have more faith in Generals to think things through and use available money for the real benefit of the US military that is engaged in this war. That is why I believe there is much more to the story than just a knee jerk NSTB action.

[Robert357]

I agree with you that the US government should work to quickly reduce its restriction of freedoms on the US public and that such restrictions should go hand in hand with agressive waging of war.

Having said that, I also feel that the US should use its collective knowledge to wage war. I liked the idea that our govenment waited a couple of weeks prior to the start of bombing so that terrorist cells could be investigated and suspect brought in and detained. I suspect that this saved thousands of additional lives here in the US by avoiding some terrorist acts and pushing the remaining terrorist cells within N. Amercia to be hiding and defensive.

As to the war overseas, I suspect that just like Desert Storm there are distinct phases. The first phase was to establish control of the skys. The second was to do selective bombing of ground targets that could oppose land operations. The third phase will likely be some ground opperations. During Desert storm people got tired of waiting for the ground war, but after 100 hours of action folks undestood that the time prior to any attack was used wisely and to prevent Coalition casualties. I suspect and pray that that is the intent of the slow and deliberate movement by the government in their war on terrorists. As to nuclear weapons, I have done nuclear 'death' calculations for a nuclear power plant accident. At one time I was familiar with various LD-50-30 rates for nuclear isotopes. What I would say about nuclear bombs, is that the blast effect and shockwave are pretty spectacular from a military perspective. The sucequent radiation poisioning is real, but (in my opinion) grossly overstated and very indescriminate.

The propblem with using nuclear weapons in Afghanistan would be in the post victory period. There would be serious decontamination and health care costs to the victors. That says nothing of the down-wind countries and how they might feel about nuclear fallout. I can't see China, Packistan, India, former Soviet Republics being thrilled about the costs and fears associated with nuclear fallout in their country.

Eisenhower demonstrated field tactical nuclear weapons at a US test site to show China how the US miltary would use them to destroy the Red Army, if China and the US got into a land war in Asia. My feeling is that against a massed enemy army of superior numbers to protect a large number of US ground troops, nuclear weapons should be used, but that is not likely to happen in Afghanistan.

[snopercod]

Are there any restrictions on those student pilots, such as having to have an instructor in the plane? Are they required to do anything different than you could do?

...VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE ENGINE NON-TURBO JET POWERED AND ROTOR DRIVEN PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 4,000 POUNDS OR LESS.

"FLIGHT TRAINING" MEANS THAT TRAINING, OTHER THAN GROUND TRAINING, RECEIVED FROM AN AUTHORIZED INSTRUCTOR IN FLIGHT IN AN AIRCRAFT."

Read the latest NOTAMS [here]

[Robert357]

Thank you for the information!

OK so one requirement is that an instructor has to be in the aircraft. Sort of sounds like maybe there is a fear of someone flying something heavy, something that can carry a large payload, or something where there isn't an instructor present.

I would call your attention to the following UK Telegraph Newspaper article at URL:
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/15/wanth15.xml

Americans urged not to panic as germ warfare fears spread
By Ben Fenton in Washington
(Filed: 15/10/2001)
AMERICANS were too busy worrying about anthrax yesterday to pay much heed to al-Qa'eda's warnings about more suicide hijackings.

What warning on October 14th? I suspect there is a fair amount of stuff we are not being told.

One last time, why were the AWAC brought over from Europe, why are both US and Canadian armed fighter aircraft flying patrols over N. American Airspace?

P.S. unless there is selective enforcement of regulations, how did Hillary get to use a private jet for fundraising over the weekend that resulted in the injury of a policeman?

[snopercod]

One last time, why were the AWAC brought over from Europe, why are both US and Canadian armed fighter aircraft flying patrols over N. American Airspace?

I'm not ignoring you, I just don't know. If you haven't read Clancy's "Storming Heaven", maybe you should. The wonks in DC seem to be following the plot page by page.

...how did Hillary get to use a private jet for fundraising over the weekend that resulted in the injury of a policeman?

IFR flight is allowed, but not into the DC area, I think. Where did she land again?

Rush really slammed her for the headlines in the paper "Incident at Airport, but Sen. Clinton OK".

[snopercod]

VFR flight restrictions are going to be "relaxed" in many areas of the country. With some notable exceptions:

          2) THE FOLLOWING OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED
          UNDER THIS PROVISION AND REMAIN PROHIBITED FROM
          OPERATING VFR IN "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE":

               NEWS REPORTING, 
               TRAFFIC WATCH, 
               CIVIL AIRCRAFT BANNER TOWING, 
               SIGHTSEEING (IN ROTORCRAFT AND AIRPLANES)
               CONDUCTED FOR COMPENSATION OR HIRE (UNDER
               PART 91, PURSUANT TO THE EXCEPTION IN 119.1(E)(2)),
               AND 
               AIRSHIP/BLIMP OPERATIONS.

Where are the media on this violation of their "free press" rights?

[Robert357]

What a weird collection of prohibited aircraft uses. Are we really afraid of a blimp being hijacked? I wonder if they have somekind of stadium threat that they know of and don't want to admit?

Changing the subject, what do you make of the three crop duster sprayings along the Missippi River a coal barge & towboat, a pleasure boat, and a Coast Guard Station. Sounds kind of weird to me. Sort of like the EPA should get on this boozo before he get's himself shot down by someone.

[AMERIKA]

Too bad the Coast Guard didn't have stinger missiles!

[snopercod]

...what do you make of the three crop duster sprayings along the Mississippi River a coal barge & towboat, a pleasure boat, and a Coast Guard Station.

I hadn't heard that. Is the article here on FR?

[hellinahandcart]

I hadn't heard that. Is the article here on FR?

You're kidding, right? There were about a dozen articles.

Here's one, and here's another.

[Robert357]

I have repeated that I want to know more about the AWAC planes? Well I don't really like what I have learned. There was an article on Drudge that I linked to about the AWACS planes and it says they are there to direct fighter jets to shoot down planes (more than just airliners) in the sky. I think that there are some additional threats that the feds are not sharing with us.

Wednesday October 24 4:51 PM ET
Crew Watches Skies From AWACS Plane

By JENNIFER L. BROWN, Associated Press Writer

ABOARD NATO AWACS 25 (AP) - The AWACS plane - an air traffic control center with wings - lifted off at daybreak and turned toward the first pink line of sunlight for another day of protecting the East Coast.

With Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma left far behind, the crew members began staring at radar screens tracking planes hundreds of miles away. For more than 10 hours, they watched their scopes for wayward aircraft and planes that weren't transmitting, or ``squawking,'' the proper code.

The overlapping, round-the-clock AWACS patrols over major U.S. cities are intended to prevent terrorist attacks like those that occurred in New York and Washington last month. F-15 and F-16 fighter jets are on call across the country, ready to shoot down an airliner if necessary.

``I never imagined in my career, in my lifetime, I'd be doing something like this,'' said J.R., an Air Force master sergeant from Tennessee aboard the plane. ``But Sept. 11 changed the world.''

J.R. is one of four Americans aboard a flight with an international cast: The Airborne Warning and Control System plane is one of five from a German base that are participating in the first NATO patrols over American skies. Tinker's 552nd Air Control Wing, which has 28 AWACS airplanes, is participating in the U.S.-led strikes on Afghanistan.

An AWACS is a modified Boeing 707 with a big rotating dome on top of the plane that emits and collects radar from aircraft.

The mission aboard NATO 25 on Tuesday was typical - a few suspicious planes turned out to be OK upon further checking. But it provided a look at the long days that 180 crew members from 13 countries are spending above the nation's skies.

``We are very proud to help you guys,'' said Capt. Eddie, the Belgian pilot.