BS or Refrigeration Breakthrough?

Kelix web site and Popular Science (1/2002) ^

[Lazamataz]

I like perpetual motion machines. They are so cool.

[cyberaxe]

.....Bad Creek is lake that Duke Power generates power from during "peak demand".....

.....and then uses the nuke plant to fill it back up in "off demand" hours.....

.....(same concept).....

[JRandomFreeper]

The words are simple the formulations and calculations can be difficult.

Something about pv and nrt and moles and k and perfect gasses and stuff if I recall. I guess you saw my variant on the spelling of therodynamics in a previous reply? It's spelled thermogodamics. For a really good reason. Boyle? who is he?

/john

[bribriagain]

Could it be that the throttling device size is controlled? Could it be variable? Microprocessor controlled?

[Down South P.E.]

What is this a test? You gave the basic components for his law - Boyles Law pv=nRT, otherwise known as the ideal gas equation or the perfect gas equation. I think his first name was Robert and he was a chemist. When you are looking at the first law equation don't forget about kinetic and potential energies, friction losses and work. Are we going to discuss enthalpy, entropy, heats of formation, sublimation .... etc. next?

[cfrels]

bump

[JRandomFreeper]

Are we going to discuss enthalpy, entropy, heats of formation, sublimation ..

No, we are not. In the words of Monty Python, "RUN AWAY".

I was just commenting on how complex and imprecise thermo-dynamics is. When I think about it, my eyes roll, and I have flashbacks to labs that went awry. Exothermic reactions are not always polite. My eyebrows grew back. GRIN!

/john

[Down South P.E.]

O.K. I think I got you now. Better get back on the subject of this thread. Anyway I hope the guy's "new" system works out for him. Though I am a skeptic at this point without seeing "the numbers." I could almost swear I have seen this concept (not exact design) somewhere else - maybe in my old thermodynamics book - oh well - I could just be imagining it.

[cyberaxe]

Though I am a skeptic

.....don't feel like the lone ranger.....

.....if there was much to this.....

.....Emerson, United Technoligies, etc would have bought it by now.....

[Down South P.E.]

I agree thermo is pretty complicated and I can appreciate your comment. You sound a little like a chemist. My field is mechanical engineering. Thermo was my favorite subject while working on my masters degree. I think it is pretty precise with respect to its applications in power generation. There are certainly a lot of avenues to explore in that science though.

[Down South P.E.]

It isn't a good concept here in the south either. But hey if you don't like compressors get you an ammonia system and run it off of solar energy. Ya'll have plenty of sun in Huston don't you?

[JRandomFreeper]

I have the greatest respect for MEs. I have a ME handbook that I reference occasionally. I see by your screen name that you have passed your Professional Engineering test too. No small feat.

Nope, not a chemist. High-school (barely) and self-education. For hobbies, I brew beer, make cheese, build Stirling engines, try to fly RC helicopters, build furniture, play piano, and a bunch of other stuff. I sys-admin for a living, and am re-enlisting in the USAF reserves if my hearing test goes well in the morning.

BTW, how do you guys calculate the effect of thermal expansion on a very large building right after sunrise on a cold morning? Things like that would worry me to death. I've seen the films of the bridge over Tacoma Narrows.

/john

[Down South P.E.]

Can't beat a self-educated person. My dad only has a high school diploma but has been a maintenance mechanic in a large plant for 35 years. I have two degrees and my professional license and yet I wonder if I will ever learn half of what he knows. Can't beat real world experience. I've never analyzed any expansion problems in buildings although I know that is a consideration. Several years ago I reviewed construction plans for fire and life safety aspects only but I noted in the drawing details expansion joints. Concrete and steel have known thermal coefficients of expansion. So I guess it is a matter of getting those expansion joints the right size. Most of my "experience" is in power generation, chiller systems and now for the last six years or so fire and explosion analysis. I have seen I-beams sticking out of the sides of concrete block walls on buildings after a fire due to expansion.

[PeaceBeWithYou]

Thermoacustics are the wave of the future. Only 3 moving parts, the acoustic driver, helium-argon gas,(in a hermeticly sealed unit) and a evaporator and condenser cooling fan in the 1/2 HP per ton range. Photovoltaic operation will be very do-able. Check out Cool Sound Industries I think they have the lead in this area, even though their ozone hole page is pure propaganda.

If I were building a new home or business right now, I'd go with a concentrated solar heat-Servel-ground loop system. The name of the company that makes this system is on the tip of my brain, ATM.

I've always thought that Tesla's turbine would make an excellent refrigerant compressor for continuous, or near continuous duty applications.

[Francohio]

Used to occasionally run into those way out in the outback, back of the beyond, off the beaten path, when I was a kid. Had no idea they were still made!

[nomad]

Bump for later read.

[Francohio]

Hey all this engineering talk has inspired me to sit down at the old d-board, slide the old slipstick ... and by golly I too am off to the patent office, if I can prevail upon you fellows to forward the fare by next post.

Ya see, I noticed that many lakes in the Northern clime zones of our fair land freeze up, during winter mostly. I propose we send guys out on the lakes with big saw type thing-a-ma-bobs. We'll cut the ice into blocks. We'll make big cork-lined sheds ("icehouse" is the term I am copyrighting), and pack the ice in sawdust, from the old sawmill.
Then, when our potential customers want to cool anything, we'll ship the ice, packed in sawdust, to them. Got it?

Hey wait a minute! We could use big SAILING ships to do this ... talk about environmentally friendly! No refrigerant chemicals, no diesel fumes, no nothing!

O What's the use? Would probably never work. Fuggedaboutit.

[John Jamieson]

I had forgotten about the Rovac system (Many buddies were taken for their savings by this set of crooks):

"Who knows, someday they may perfect an air conditioner that uses no refrigerant whatsoever. Some time back, the Rovac Corporation in Rockledge, FL, announced it had developed a revolutionary A/C system that required no refrigerant at all, and used air itself as the working medium. The Rovac system used a "circulator" that was essentially an expander rather than a compressor. By expanding the volume of air, the drop in pressure produced a corresponding drop in temperature. The system supposedly required 35 to 40% less power than a refrigerant-based A/C system and provided equivalent cooling. Last we heard, Mitsubishi has licensed rights to the technology and was investigating it further. That was 20 years ago. We’re still waiting.

"Ten years ago, the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA, claimed it had developed a refrigeration process using an acoustic generator. Sound waves were used to create pressure changes that had a chilling effect. No word as to what ever happened to this technology.

"Until the auto makers or somebody else comes up with an alternative to R-134a that provides a significant advantage such as lower energy consumption, better cooling performance and/or lower cost than R-134a, it looks like R-134a will be the refrigerant of choice for all new vehicles for some time to come, and the primary retrofit alternative for older R-12 systems."

[gonzo]

"...Anyone have a scientific as opposed to emotional thought on the subject?..."

Yes, I do, John. Have a wonderful and Merry Christmas, old friend!

Oh, and don't buy any stock in this guys' Company, or you will once again prove the old adage that: "A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place!"

The Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics are pretty much in place. Unless you see someone walking around with 'Cold-Fusion' dripping out of their pockets, I think the Laws will still be in effect.

They are fun to read, though...Stay well.....FRegards

[John Jamieson]

The new mystery:

Who is Gonzo and does he really love me?