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To: Maelstrom
Sorry old chap, not a word about secession anywhere in [Art. I, Section 10].

Please pay close attention. As I've stated, there's nothing about secession anywhere in the Constitution. As I also specifically stated to you, however, there is a specific provision in Art. I. Sect. 10 which prohibits states from entering into any confederations with other states or engaging in war.

...many of the states that signed into the Constitution made their ratification conditional.

I'm not aware of any state reserving the authority to secede. Some may have internally stated such an intention, but such an agreement among lawmakers in a state would not be binding on the U.S.

Take your pick of reasons the Constitution has been invalidated. 1) The federalists lied and the Constitution was always intended to be involuntarily binding once joined...thus breaking the contract the Constitution represents. 2) Lincoln violated the Constitution by expanding federal powers beyond those enumerated, thus breaking the contract the Constitution represents. 3) The Constution was invalid due to a basic incompatibility with the existance of slavery. 4) Your view, which seems to be a combination of 1 and 3.

Lincoln was not even in office when most of the Confederates seceded and formed an unconstitutional confederation, so they could not rely on anything Lincoln did to constitutionally justify their contravention of the Constitution. They knew they were engaging in what was essentially a revolutionary act and they knew that they were inviting war. In fact, the Lower South used their unconstitutional attack on Fort Sumter to attract the Upper South states to their cause. The Confederates tried somewhat to negotiate a peaceful secession, but they never made any attempt to legally establish any claims about the unenforceability of the U.S. Constitution. You're way off in Confederate glorification fantasyland and show no signs of getting back to civilization.

I don't think you understand what an Enumerated Constitution means... It means that the federal government has *no say* in who may or may not have slaves because no such power was *enumerated* in the Constitution.

Nonsense. The Northwest Ordinance established a history of federal involvement in abolition even prior to the adoption of the Constitution. The Constitution also provided for amendment, and thus the 13th Amendment (thankfully) abolished slavery in a clearly constitutional manner. Apparently the abolition of slavery broke your faith in government by the slaveholders, for the slaveholders, but the Northwest Ordinance was clear warning to the slaveholders that total abolition was a real and constitutional possibility.

... the Constitution is no longer enumerated and controls absolutely *everything* pending the proper "interpretation" by a coercible Supreme Court and an irresponsible Congress led by the king for a day (or four years if you prefer).

The Constitution has always been a vague and ambiguous document and American citizens have always been subject to majoritarian tyranny. Until 1865, the most obvious form of tyranny was the toleration of slavery in some states. Since 1865, other forms of tyranny have become more prominent. Tocqueville warned all Americans about the specter of majoritarian tyranny way back in the 1830's, and rather than coming up with a better system, the Confederates made it very clear with theur constitution that they were all about instituting slavery. You seem to be imagining an Antebellum American Utopia that never existed.

463 posted on 04/06/2002 12:27:54 AM PST by ravinson
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To: ravinson
Please pay close attention. As I've stated, there's nothing about secession anywhere in the Constitution. As I also specifically stated to you, however, there is a specific provision in Art. I. Sect. 10 which prohibits states from entering into any confederations with other states or engaging in war.

And, as has been stated before, once a state has seceded, those provision, nor any other portion of that document apply any longer.

I'm not aware of any state reserving the authority to secede.

There are quite a few states that did so among the original 13 as well as Texas later on.

Lincoln was not even in office when most of the Confederates seceded and formed an unconstitutional confederation

Lincoln was in office, he just wasn't in the Presidential office. Once a state has seceded, nothing that they do is unconstitutional, as per the definition of secession. This would include entering into a confederation or beginning a war...or...as in this case, defending themselves in a war.

In fact, the Lower South used their unconstitutional attack on Fort Sumter to attract the Upper South states to their cause.

1) GA wasn't a state. It had seceded.
2) The soldiers had moved from their location at Ft. Marcy to Ft. Sumpter that would have effectively blockaded Charleston with a very defensible fort once reinforcements arrived with appropriate artillery.
Therefore, the move revealed an act of war. A blockade, is an Act of War.
3) The only reason those soldiers were there in the first place was to ensure the continued taxation to ruination and seizure of goods exported as people attempted to freely trade.

Nonsense

Nonsense? Where in the Constitution is the power to initiate war granted to the President? Where in the Constitution is the power to deport dissenting Congressmen granted to the President? Where in the Constitution is the suppression of the Bill of Rights granted to the President? Where in the Constitution is the arrest and imprisonment of an entire state's Congress given to the President? Where in the Constitution is the call up of militias given to the President?

Where in the Constitution is the power to arbitrarily restrict Free Speech, gun ownership, and indeed since we're talking about the War of Northern Agression and at the time there *were* only 12 Amendments, Where, at that time, was the power to abolish slavery given solely to the President?
(Hint: NONE of those powers were given to the President.)

The Constitution has always been a vague and ambiguous document and American citizens have always been subject to majoritarian tyranny.

You have 2 choices, 1) The Constitution is invalid as it establishes a majoritarian tyranny. 2) The Constitution is invalid as it does not establish a majoritarian tyranny, but has been violated in such a manner.

BTW: The Constitution isn't vague or ambiguous. It's wording is quite clear and the spirit in which it was written is available to any who look. Vaguaries and Ambiguities in the Constitution are placed there by lawyers taking advantage of slight linguistic shifts in the population...and the 9th and 10th Amendments were as important as the 1st and 2nd Amendments.
468 posted on 04/06/2002 2:26:45 AM PST by Maelstrom
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