[Liberty Tree Surgeon]

Now please show me actions similar to the Brits by the federal government prior to 1860.

Not to get side tracked, but would you agree to secesstion if we changed the date to 2002? Looking at where freedom is now versus 140 years ago, has it gotten bad enough, and if not, just what would make the Great Walt finally allow his countrymen the right to self-determination?

LTS

[WhiskeyPapa]

Now please show me actions similar to the Brits by the federal government prior to 1860.

Not to get side tracked, but would you agree to secesstion if we changed the date to 2002? Looking at where freedom is now versus 140 years ago, has it gotten bad enough, and if not, just what would make the Great Walt finally allow his countrymen the right to self-determination?

If you want to cite Waco, Ruby Ridge, the 16th amendment or whatever for saying the system is broken now, you'll get no kick from me. But you simply can't make that argument for the situation in 1860.

Walt

[dwbh1342]

Not to get side tracked, but would you agree to secesstion if we changed the date to 2002? Looking at where freedom is now versus 140 years ago, has it gotten bad enough, and if not, just what would make the Great Walt finally allow his countrymen the right to self-determination?

From an earlier quote:

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Are we currently under a system of Despotism? Here's what Merriam-Webster says "Despotism" is:

1 a : rule by a despot b : despotic exercise of power 2 a : a system of government in which the ruler has unlimited power : ABSOLUTISM b : a despotic state

Does our ruler (Dubya) have "unlimited power"? Certianly not. Despite things that have happened politically and domestically that you might not agree with, were they done out of a design to further Despotism? Since we still have a two-party system with virtually equal power to send representatives to government, that would be no. So there is certainly no moral prerogative to secede today, as there was none to secede in 1860.