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Court Overturns Bookstore Ruling
http://www.abcnews.go.com/ ^ | April 8 2002 | AP

Posted on 04/08/2002 2:04:42 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK

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To: chance33_98
Funny thing though, the same god I have often heard people rant about - he watches you all the time, he judges your actions, punishes you, etc and so on - is what the liberals are pushing to become.

I've posted elsewhere that the liberal idealists are seeking to recreate Eden, a place where nobody has to worry about anything because nobody can do anything of consequence. What they fail to realize is that--far from being paradise--Eden 1.0 was fundamentally incompatible with human nature. Human beings have an inherent need to do something that "matters". If they cannot do anything positive, they will do something negative. Liberalism is based upon the lie that it's better to have nothing matter than to have to live with life's choices; what they fail to realize is that they are prescribing not Heaven, but Hell.

61 posted on 04/08/2002 11:31:45 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
Well Said. Liked your profile page too :) I am still working on mine. Got a web page though, although it is geared only towards us FR geeks. Here TV News stations and newspapers. Helps me a lot with posting here.
62 posted on 04/08/2002 11:35:03 PM PDT by chance33_98
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
My biggest issue here (and it was true of the Monica Lewinsky suit to get details from the bookstore she visited)...

Why are bookstores even keeping a tab on who bought what??? The easiest way to prevent such investigation is to not keep such records. In store purchases need no such paperwork and mail order accounts can be cleared after the shipment has been received.

But we live in a world where video stores, grocery stores, online stores (e.g. Amazon) see great value in having a history of your buying/rental habits.

63 posted on 04/08/2002 11:51:53 PM PDT by weegee
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
This also reminds me of a case in Japan where a child's severed head was impaled on a fence. The police researched video stores to identify people who had a habit of renting horrifying videos.

The culprit ended up being a 13 year old classmate (I never heard of any link between the video stores and the guilty party).

64 posted on 04/08/2002 11:56:11 PM PDT by weegee
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To: lowbridge
I'd like to read some of your "early" posts (especially from around 1776) but they seem to have been lost with the new FR format ;^P
65 posted on 04/09/2002 12:01:05 AM PDT by weegee
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To: spqrzilla9
The book was about how to set up a meth lab. The crime was setting up a meth lab.

The book was the "how to". The receipts to the purchase of the chemicals are more significant.

66 posted on 04/09/2002 12:04:35 AM PDT by weegee
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
"SHAKEDOWN"

The life and lies of Jesse the Slob!

67 posted on 04/09/2002 12:08:18 AM PDT by RIGHT IN SEATTLE
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To: gcruse
Some students even have to worry about magazines that they subscribe to:

Christian school kept Rolling Stone, Cosmo from student mailboxes

68 posted on 04/09/2002 12:10:32 AM PDT by weegee
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To: spqrzilla9
Not until you identify who bought them. Seems you caught yourself up and established my point.

I'm just telling you what the judge said. The fact of the matter is, the cop in charge of this investigation is grasping at straws. He claims he wants to establish whose bedroom it was, yet he gathered no relevant information regarding that matter. His claim is that whoever bought the book must have been the bedroom's occupant, and for some reason he didn't find it necessary to check the room for prints, search credit card records to see who bought any of the other stuff in the room, ask friends and neighbors, or whatever a normal detective would do to ascertain such info. Heck, I'm no detective, but it seems obvious to me that if you want to know whose room it is, you should be checking stuff like prints and maybe hair samples found in the bed or something like that.

The books were never even looked at, so any meth manufactured in that home was manufactured with no help from those books. If there was actually lab equipment that was used to manufacture drugs, the equipment could be tested for chemical residue. There were precursor chemicals purchased by the suspect. Weren't those found at the scene? Fingerprints on the equipment--did those match the suspect's prints?

Essentially, the judge's main point is that, since fundamental rights are implicated in this case, the government needs to show that its "need for this evidence is sufficiently compelling to outweigh the harmful effects of the search warrant." But the City already has strong enough evidence to make its case without the invoice information, so the government's need is not compelling enough.

69 posted on 04/09/2002 12:15:53 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: spqrzilla9
The police can, with a proper warrant, investigate things far more intimate than a book purchase. Medical records, the contents of your house, what websites you've examined, banking records.

I am aware of this (I recall a measure in Texas for police to be able to see medical records without a warrant).

What I would like to know is, besides evidence of a shooting victim, what would the police be after? Blood type? Other samples that a defendent would be able to challenge (to avoid self incrimentation)?

70 posted on 04/09/2002 12:16:01 AM PDT by weegee
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To: supercat
"You have the right to free speech. That's if you're not dumb enough to actually try it!" - Know Your Rights - The Clash

Coming soon to a legislator near you, a proposal to have a 5 day waiting period on all book purchases and a 4 book a month buying policy. There's a lot a dangerous information in the encyclopedia and buying it on the installment plan may cause some criminals to ponder their actions... < /sarcasm >

71 posted on 04/09/2002 12:24:55 AM PDT by weegee
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To: Sandy
The mobile home was on a piece of land. The book-mailer was sent to an address. There has to be a name associated with this someplace.

It reminds me of John Waters' Pink Flamingos when the mailman comes to Divine's trailer with a package (from her enemies). "She" says that it is a trailer and that it doesn't have an address.

The label is written "A Trailer".

72 posted on 04/09/2002 12:30:40 AM PDT by weegee
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To: spqrzilla9
They also wanted to establish intent to manufacture, which is almost absurd. The lab equipment, the meth, and the "how-to" books at scene--regardless of who purchased them--were more than sufficient to prove intent.
Not until you identify who bought them. Seems you caught yourself up and established my point.

Perhaps "intent" was an unclear choice of words on my part. What the court actually said was,

[T]he City states that [knowing whether Suspect A purchased the two “how to” books found at the scene of the crime] will help them to prove the mens rea of the crime, that Suspect A “intentionally or knowingly” operated the methamphetamine lab...

[W]e note that the City’s search of the bedroom revealed a fully operational and functional methamphetamine lab as well as a small quantity of the manufactured drug. The two “how to” books were found in the immediate vicinity of the lab. The physical presence of the lab itself, and of these books, goes a long way towards proving that the operator of the lab did not accidentally manufacture methamphetamines. These facts leave no doubt that the person or persons who operated this lab did so intentionally.


73 posted on 04/09/2002 12:31:40 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: weegee
The book-mailer was sent to an address. There has to be a name associated with this someplace.

The mailing envelope (which btw was found in the outside trash the day before the raid) was addressed to the suspect and also included a phone number on the label. There's no evidence, however, that the books inside the home are the same books that actually came in the package.

74 posted on 04/09/2002 12:42:42 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: Sandy
The envelope was printed with an invoice number and the trailer's address, but no name.

It seems odd that the local post office would not have a name for that address.

75 posted on 04/09/2002 1:22:36 AM PDT by weegee
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To: weegee
The suspect's name was on the envelope. What is not known is what the contents of the envelope were. Since the books were apparently brand new, the assumption is that those books were what was sent in the envelope.
76 posted on 04/09/2002 1:44:59 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: weegee
Oh, I see now that you were quoting the article. The article is wrong.
77 posted on 04/09/2002 1:47:42 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: Sandy
How do you know the government had "enough" evidence to convict? That's the jury's job to decide and as we've seen in some cases for some defendants nothing is "enough". Saying ahead of time that the police had "enough" is a silly thing for the court to do and they know better.
78 posted on 04/09/2002 7:54:45 AM PDT by spqrzilla9
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To: spqrzilla9;Sandy
I call it Sandy by a nose...so far!

Seriously, a book IS just another object(like a hammer), BUT it does seem the cops are attempting to obscure their incompetence by 'inking' the waters.

There should be a Constitutional Amendment protecting secondhand book stores. ;^)

79 posted on 04/09/2002 8:29:50 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: headsonpikes
It doesn't matter if Sandy is correct that the police are somehow making up for their incompetence, that is nothing but a side issue. It should not justify the court inventing a new rule of law on this issue.
80 posted on 04/09/2002 8:31:29 AM PDT by spqrzilla9
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