Perhaps they have another name for it then?
We just don't care for children being executed without due process; without his or her constitutional right to legal counsel or his or her right to a fair and speedy trial to determine guilt or innocence.
What a straw man, since we are talking about a fetus, not a living soul. (Yes, a fetus is alive, but it is not a living soul, because it has not yet been BORN. See how we disagree -- with scriptural grounds claimed on both sides -- on this most basic issue? Now what would you do about that, if you were to find the country divided 50/50 along those very lines? Wouldn't you demand guns for your side to force the other to comply, believing that you are defending the lives and supposed rights of "unborn children?")
What we have now is a form of dictatorship. A woman can dictate the life or death of her unborn living human and say, “Off with your head”.
And so, since in your opinion "abortion is murder of the innocent," that gives you the moral right, and I would say IMPETUS and OBLIGATION and DUTY to do whatever you can to stop the "murder," and extend CONTROL into every aspect of a woman's life, even to her own womb. At least that is how the "abortion is murder" crowd sees -- and justifies -- it. That moves from a "form of dictatorship" into an actual one.
For almost 200 years, we didn't have legalized abortion in our country and no one was guilty of cramming religion down a woman's throat. Now for the past 30 years, we are guilty as sin for saying abortion is murder. As a matter of fact, GEE…..we did just fine without legalized abortion all those years didn’t we? Now we’re all going to hell in a DIAPER BAG.
Back alley abortions and lost and ruined lives as a result -- that's doing just fine? And why do you suppose many women were having the illegal abortions? Because of mistakes in a judgmental, puritanical society, where she would be labeled the worst things, put out of church and shunned for turning of pregnant, her family would suffer the shame, and the child, if born, would carry the name and stigma of "bastard" for life. And "bastard" wasn't just a cute South Park cartoon cuss word then.
Abortion is more than just a dead baby. It’s a bad attitude. It has given permission for casual sex with dozens and dozens of partners. What follows is rampant sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted children left to die in a bathroom during the prom, broken homes, lives of guilt and regret. Women in so much grief over their abortion 10 years before, they can’t be a good mother to the children they have now and have terrible problems bonding with their spouse. These women endure severe depressions and long term indescribable grief. etc, etc, etc and on and on we can go.
And if you had said "fetus" instead of "baby" in the first sentence of that paragraph, I might agree with every last word of it. Except that many women turn and find grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ and do not suffer the things you mentioned. I would agree that abortion is a snare that can lead to guilt. Therefore screaming "murderer" serves the snare by piling on the guilt; it serves condemnation, and destroys, rather than helps.
And if you really push the logic behind idea that there should be no sex without consequences (or no sex without "blessing"), then even ordinary, routine birth control is evil too.
And I've got news for you, MOST women who get abortions don't want them, they just THINK they do because they are in a panic and they are in shock. After all is said and done, MOST of them REGRET their CHOICE. Many of them are pressured by a boyfriend or a parent to make the CHOICE they want them to make. This is CHOICE? I say we need laws to protect WOMEN and CHILDREN from this very bad and painful CHOICE. Need I mention the fathers involved who have no say in their child's life or death status?
I thought you just said the boyfriends (fathers) are the ones pressuring them into it.
If we did away with abortion, most women would keep their unborn HUMAN, give birth and get on with a JOYFUL life. Giving birth and being a mother really isn’t as bad as the Feminazi culture would have us believe.
Strong points. But "abortion is murder" is not the way to go about it. It hasn't won the debate yet, and it won't, except when the "abortion is murder" crowd finally gets the federal gun power they need to impose their agenda by force.
I personally would like to see Roe v Wade repealed, the authority returned to the individual states to outlaw (or not outlaw) abortion. I would like to return to a time more "innocent," when girls who "got in trouble" simply went away for a few months. They gave the unwanted babies up for adoption of course. I suspect that even in that "innocent" time many of those would have preferred keeping the babies had it not been for cultural labeling and socio-religious pressures.
But even in those times with those options, dangerous back alley abortions were available and being done. Not everyone came from a family of means capable of sending them "away" to have the baby.
And here's where I see your point, to an extent. Legalized abortions seem to have made abortion a casual act of convenience, rather than one of desperation. "Oops, pregnant. No prob. I'll pop in to see the doc this afternoon, and sleep around more tonight." But I think legalization is not nearly to blame as cultural promotion and societal endorsement of abortion.
Let me put it this way. Girls wouldn't be caught dead wearing high waisted jeans if they thoughht their culture (tv/radio/celebrities/magazines/peers) disapproved. If the culture frowned on abortion and promoted the carrying of babies to full term, giving birth (then putting up for adoption if necessary) the majority of abortion clinics would close overnight. And laws -- and enforcement -- wouldn't even be necessary to accomplish it. (WHAT? HEY! NO LAWS? THAT MEANS WE CAN'T RULE OVER THE OTHERS? WE WON'T HEAR OF THAT! NO!)
Again, screaming "abortion is murder" and holding up pictures of aborted fetuses isn't going to get it done. Except by force.
I don’t know if you are a Christian or not, but Christians believe God is about love, grace, and mercy. He loves the “little guy” in life. He has commandments for us to take care and defend those who can not take care of themselves. The widows, orphans, those living in poverty who cannot feed themselves, and those being led to the slaughter. In my opinion, abortion doesn’t fit with who or what God is. Abortion is contradictory to him, and who he is as THE Supreme Being. Your use of scripture to support your pro-choice view, is not persuasive because we have the BIG picture of who and what God is, and what he likes and doesn't like.
Proverbs 24:11 says “Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter.”.
The ancient Assyrians, Sumerians, Babylonians and Persians all had extremely strict laws forbidding abortion. The Assyrians were a brutal bunch of people who chopped peoples fingers off for dinner time entertainment. How can such a blood thirsty people forbid abortion, when we, the United States of America, a supposedly civilized group of people, allow it? The Greeks and Romans allowed abortions, but there were strict laws forcing the woman to inform her husband of her abortion BEFORE it took place. The Hippocratic oath given in 400 B.C. stated, "I will not give to a woman an instrument to procure abortion." Pagan Greeks thought the “fetus” was fully human, equivalent to the newborn.
The Hebrew people placed high value on children and families. It was unthinkable that a Jewish woman would want an abortion. It is wrong to shed innocent blood. Innocent human life was valuable because of the sacred nature of being made in the likeness of God. Also, the Hebrew word for fetus and child was the same (I think). Have you not read the dozens of stories of God “helping” a woman get pregnant, to fulfill his will, so he could be glorified. God LOVES babies, and you can see it in all the barren stories of Elizabeth, Sarah, Hannah, and Rachel. Babies were ALWAYS a blessing whether she was barren or not. AND…..have you also not read how much God HATED child sacrifice and what he did to his people when they turned to this. Child sacrifice, idol worship, and homosexuality was the LAST STRAW for God. He would not tolerate people throwing their babies into the fire.
You said this; And so, since in your opinion "abortion is murder of the innocent," that gives you the moral right, and I would say IMPETUS and OBLIGATION and DUTY to do whatever you can to stop the "murder," and extend CONTROL into every aspect of a woman's life, even to her own womb.
I would say the government has the moral DUTY to protect citizens, even those unborn. There are laws to protect your life and my life. Does an unborn child not matter? Why is a “fetus” a human if the woman has a miscarriage, but if she has an abortion, the “fetus” is a nothing. Determining the pre-born child’s “life” status of “human” or “not human” all depends on the emotions of the mother. Laws protected the unborn and had “control” over a woman’s womb for centuries. Big deal. No one complained about it 100 years ago. It was “accepted” that a baby was a life. Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were pro-life. Then Margaret Sanger came along, and the rest is history.
I don’t understand your obsession with theocracy. Were we a theocracy before 1973? There are plenty of non religious pro life people, because they believe in the sanctity of human life and civil rights for all humans, even the unborn.
There doesn’t need to be an 11th commandment saying, “Thou shall not kill your unborn child”, for Christians to understand that abortion is evil. Abortion is the brutal action of a deep lack of faith in God to work everything out for her. There are plenty of scriptures to support God’s attitude about protecting the unborn. Protect the innocent, you were made in my image, your body is not your own…it is the temple of the Holy Spirit, thou shall not commit premeditated murder, fornication is a sin, always have faith in me because I will take care of you and everything will work out. etc, etc, etc.
My body and my womb does not belong to me. It belongs to God. I Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit {who is} in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"
If you go read the Planned Parenthood testimonial board, MOST of the women who get abortions are college aged girls who “weren’t ready for a baby or their boyfriend left them”. Abortion to save the life of the mother is rare and usually not necessary, since a late term abortion takes three days, when a C-section takes 30 minutes. Soooooooo…..abortion, what we have right now, is birth control. THAT IS EVIL.
Back alley abortions is an emotional, dramatic myth. I’m sure it happened occasionally, but it was rare. I don’t buy that argument.
You also said, ”But "abortion is murder" is not the way to go about it. It hasn't won the debate yet, and it won't,. Well, maybe not with you (yet) but it sure worked on people like Norma McCorvey.
One more point and then I need to get up. I take issue with the dramatic use of “we are going to go get women who get abortions with guns”. That’s a little over the top and not true. Your stereotyping is not fair or just. I can’t speak for every pro-lifer here at FR, but I seriously doubt any of us would walk up to a woman getting an abortion or one who had one, and scream in her face, “YOU’RE A MURDERER”. We are in this to save the woman just as much as the children. Even Norma McCorvey will tell you about all the times she spat in the face of a pro-lifer, only to have them wipe it off with a smile and say, “Jesus loves you”. Yes we feel abortion is murder, and because we are here debating this serious, emotional subject, we say emotional things. But when it comes down to the real thing, we would take her in our arms and give her a big hug and try to talk to her. We would try to share with her the loving mercy and forgiveness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that is available to her, free of charge.
Yikes! Sorry for the "essay". I had a lot to say and wanted to get it all over at once. I'm busy. Have a good day.