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Fortuyn favoured depraved
Scotsman ^

Posted on 05/16/2002 11:21:38 AM PDT by VinnyTex

Scotland on Sunday   
Sun 12 May 2002

Fortuyn favoured depraved

MARCELLO MEGA AND JUSTIN SPARKS

PIM Fortuyn, the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered last week was a powerful advocate or
paedophilia, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.

His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalisation of drug laws and his open homosexuality were well-known. But his approval of paedophilia, while not a secret, was ignored by Dutch journalists covering his election campaign.

Fortuyn stood to gain up to 20% of the vote in Wednesday's election and his list is expected to gain thousands of extra votes.

Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-paedophile campaigner in Holland, said: "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew. I was asking them to challenge him on his views about paedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace.

"It is strange that they could criticise him, quite rightly, for being racist, but were unwilling to raise this other matter. I can't say for sure that he was a paedophile himself, but he was certainly an advocate for adult-child sex."

Van Engelen cites a column Fortuyn wrote for the Dutch current affairs magazine, Elsevier, in 1999. It was so on-message for pro-paedophile campaigners that it was reproduced by Koinos, a magazine for homosexual paedophiles.

In his article, Fortuyn wrote: "Paedophilia is just like hetero and homosexuality. It is something that is in the genes. There is little if anything that you can do about it or against it. You are who you are? sooner or later the proclivity makes its irresistible appearance. It is not any more curable than hetero or homosexuality."

The column concludes: "The law philosopher and paedophile [Edward] Brongersma, for years senator of the Labour party, spent his life campaigning for understanding of the paedophile fellow man. He launched this effort fearlessly after serving a sentence for sexual harassment of a minor. The minor in question had not considered it harassment, but the justice department judged otherwise in the 1950s.

"In the 1970s and 1980s, Brongersma slowly but surely gained ground. After the invention of the Pill came sexual liberation. Gay sex became accepted, and why then should paedo sex not be allowed ? under the strict condition that the child is willing and that there is no coercion? This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned, and under the influence of the ologists, the child is defined as totally
devoid of sexual desires, at least where adults are concerned.

"We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter. For everything which can be discussed is in principle also manageable, one would think!"

In the last week, Fortuyn has been lionised in the Dutch media. Thousands of mourners have paid their respects and many more have promised to vote for the list of candidates that still bears his name. In their sense of shock many in Holland have lost sight of Fortuyn's controversial ideas and instead focused on his image as a colourful and entertaining maverick.

"The killing has produced a sort of Dutch 'Diana' effect," said Fred Spier, a social anthropologist at Amsterdam University. "Tens of thousands of people who previously had no sympathy for Mr Fortuyn have joined his supporters all across the country in a mass outpouring of grief. He has turned from the bad man of right-wing politics into a fallen national hero overnight.''

Not only has Fortuyn's death won the sympathy of voters, but it has also served to discredit the mainstream parties, which are being accused of having whipped up a national hate campaign against Fortuyn by 'wrongly' portraying him as a right-wing extremist.

In 1998, Fortuyn published an autobiographical work called Babyboomers, the name given to children born in the post-war years up to 1953. He reveals that he had early sexual experiences with adult males, which he claims to have found pleasurable and exciting. His logic is that because he enjoyed sexual experiences with adult men as a child, it should be legal.

Fortuyn's first experience occurred when he was five years old. "The Dutch soldier asks if I want to see his tent. That's what I want. I like it and they all are sleeping on the ground in a sleeping-bag. I ask if it is hard and cold to sleep on the ground. Oh no, come here. Together we crawl in his sleeping-bag. The soldier asks my name and I ask his name.

?He is called Arie and he asks if I like that name. Yes, I think that's a nice name and I lie beside him, nice and warm."

Fortuyn then described a close sexual encounter with the soldier before leaving his sleeping-bag "to go and play outside." He added: "Can I come back tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow I may come back, says Arie."

A few pages later, he describes another incident: "I went to the park for a walk, it was very silent and the sun was shining. On the bench sat a young fellow. I stood still, curious."

Fortuyn relates another sexual encounter - this time in explicit detail. He concludes: "I was frightened and ran away to my home, to my mother. Excited, I ran into the room. My mother looked at me searchingly and asked what had happened. Nothing, of course. Watch out, little man, was the only thing she said. A glass of lemonade made me calm down. Yes, that was exciting."

Most telling is his appraisal of these memories. "In chapter 1 about the 1950s, I wrote about my early sexual experiences, experiences that I see as an enrichment. Today, an experience like that in the ppark could easily lead to a complaint by parents to the police because of paedophilia, and the relevant young man would be in trouble. But why?

"He didn't do me any harm. On the contrary, he showed me something that was incomprehensibly exciting and I could feel and touch it, but today we are ready to interfere with complete teams of professionals. By interfering in such an irritating and grown-up way in the world of children, we make an
enormous problem of something that for a child is no problem at all and is only exciting."

Van Engelen said: "The problem with Pim Fortuyn was that he never grew up. In his mind he stayed a little boy. A lot of Dutch men recognised that. That's what made him so popular, among other things. It's a pity that we no longer have the opportunity to challenge him about these views. He did not seem willing to recognise that a child will be harmed by sex with an adult."


This article:

   http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=513942002

More Far Right in Europe:

   http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=223

Websites:

  Front National
   http://www.front-national.com/

  L'Humanité (newspaper)
   http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/

  Le Figaro (newspaper)
   http://www.lefigaro.fr/

  Le Monde (newspaper)
   http://www.lemonde.fr/

  Parti Communiste Français
   http://www.pcf.fr/

  Parti Socialiste
   http://www.parti-socialiste.fr/

  RPR - Rassemblement pour la République
   http://www.rpr.asso.fr/

  UDF - Union pour la Démocratie Française
   http://www.udf.org/


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: europelist
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To: summer; Jean S; Howlin
"I am not interested in Jack Thompson."

"I do not want you pinging me to Jack Thompson rubbish in order to pretend to others that I am interested in him."

And you have the nerve to call ME a liar?

You posted over 20 replies on the thread about my interview with Jack this past Tuesday, no one flagged you, you just showed up. Not bad for someone "not interested in Jack Thompson"...not a good thing for someone who calls others a liar so freely, to lie so openly.

"You also knew that he had plenty of time to post and respond to those two FR posters on that thread questioning him, and he was not banned at that time."

No I don't, I knew nothing of the sort. I do know that sometimes it tales people hours to catch up to their *pings*, and in spite the fact that you believe that we all rush to answer your summons, we don't. Jack didn't, but he did make sure that he could answer your question on that interview on Radio FR that you wouldn't listen to, but took the time to post over 20 replies on the live thread, 14 of them before you and I "spoke", and you equated Radio FreeRepublic with trash like Howard Stern and Jerry Springer.

You seem to believe that you have some sort of immunity to call people names, you don't.

"And, because of your flame war on my 3rd part of the Jeb series, I almost stopped writing that series. Thankfully, I did not."

Wow! Thew world would have been the worst for that!

Let's set the record straight, shall we?

You BEGGED me to read the article and post a comment, I gracefully declined claiming other responsibilities, you came back and asked again--I do have the FRemails, if you need a memory refresher--this time I did read and respond. And I didn't agree with your opinion.

You insulted me, and had my posts pulled, along with anyone's who agreed with me (I flagged a couple of them for verification), then the entire thread was pulled.

"A major newspaper wanted to publish one of my essays, but it was already posted here on a web site, and so they could not."

Well, better luck next time...

"But, if I ever leave here because you harass the h*ll out of me, I assure you I already have people who would like to publish what I write about..."

Well! Bon Voyage!!!!

"Gov Bush - a subject you clearly know nothing about nor care about."

Now summer...how could you possibly have any idea about what I know, or what I don't know about?

This must be like the part where you compare Radio FreeRepublic to trash like Stern and Springer, and then claim that I don't get your point?

141 posted on 05/16/2002 9:56:34 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Alberta's Child
The last of my worries would be whether Muslims would be able to outlaw the plooking of little boys. I guess politics do make strange bedfellows. (Doh!)
142 posted on 05/16/2002 10:04:31 PM PDT by TN Republican
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To: VinnyTex
Well Vinney thanks for the ping. All I kept hearing was that this guy was a right-winger. Only goes to show you that, "there is a story behind the story."
143 posted on 05/16/2002 10:11:02 PM PDT by eternity
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To: all
Can someone help with this?

Freepers working together might bring more light to Fortiyn assasination.

144 posted on 05/17/2002 11:47:12 AM PDT by DTA
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To: VinnyTex
His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalisation of drug laws and his open homosexuality were well-known.

He had no "controversial views on race"; his number 2 guy, who is now the leader of his party, is black.

In Holland, a controversial view on liberalized drugs laws is opposition to them. He favored them.

Two lies in one sentence.

145 posted on 05/17/2002 1:29:51 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: A.J.Armitage
He had no "controversial views on race"

He had controversial views on religion, but not on race.

146 posted on 05/17/2002 2:15:56 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Understand one thing, you post articles in this forum, I am a member of this forum, as such, I am free to comment on the things that you post.

Except you weren't actually commenting, were you? You were posting an obnoxious bit of self-promotion.

147 posted on 05/17/2002 3:34:50 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: Kevin Curry
However, I do know better than to suggest that that God's grace may imposed on, and against the will of, a reprobate sinner.

If, as you say, God does not impose grace on someone who doesn't want it, and if, as the Apostle Paul says, no one wants it, since there are none that understand and none that seek after God (Rom. 3:11), how exactly does anyone get saved?

148 posted on 05/17/2002 3:39:30 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: xm177e2
Thanks for the ping. At first I thought you pinged me because I had written on another thread:

I think it was a mistake for so many conservatives to embrace this man as one of their own after his assassination. .

But, no matter, I am always glad when someone brings to my attention something that supports my POV.

But, I have to warn you that if you ever bring to my attention something that challenges my POV, you can expect a blast of bitterness, resentment, and indignation. I mean this as a joke, an irony. And maybe, as a slight burn to all of those who are overly upset with you for pinging them.

I would imagine those people are the winners in Life's Lottery and have never had to deal with SUN customer service.

149 posted on 05/17/2002 4:48:45 PM PDT by Duke Nukum
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To: A.J.Armitage
Do try to keep up, I'm commenting on a different issue with that quote. As far as the self-promotion...oh well!
150 posted on 05/17/2002 5:21:56 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: VinnyTex
Why is this only coming out now, after his death when he can no longer defend himself?
151 posted on 05/17/2002 6:40:45 PM PDT by Michael2001
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To: Arioch7
Hey, that was a nice nutshell explanation of the difference in European and American conservatism. I hadn't really thought of European conservatism as being about conserving Empire, but that seems like a good characterization. I also like the idea of socialism and fascism as oligarchic and monarchic totalitarian systems.

It was such a revelation for me when it finally sunk in that these are very closely related and totally at odds with America's capitalist, classically-liberal system. This is really the key to understanding what's going on, politically, in the world nowadays. I wish they would hammer home this concept in the schools (unfortunately, I doubt most teachers understand it).

With regard to American conservatism, I think there are two fairly distinct types (or at least there is a gradient with two distinct ends), big-government conservatism and small-government conservatism, with the former bearing more similarity to European conservatism than the latter. Thee two share the same tradtional moral framework, but the big-government type is more outcome-oriented and is less committed to individual rights.

152 posted on 05/17/2002 6:44:46 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Liar.

As anyone can see by following the links at the bottom, you were replying to this:

Re your post #52 and all future posts to me - Please remove me from your ping list. Thanks.

And #52 was your spam about your show.

153 posted on 05/17/2002 8:05:59 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: A.J.Armitage
#52 was about the spam for Radio FreeRepublic, and it also included a request to not respond to her in the future, "Re your post #52 and all future posts to me - Please remove me from your ping list. Thanks."

I responded to the first half of her request in #60 by letting her know that I don't have a "ping" list.

I followed up on that response by addressing the second half of her request, the "all future posts" part, by letting her know that I would continue to post to her as long as she posted articles, it's what we all take a chance with anytime we post an article in FR, that people with whom we do not agree with may post their opinion of our opinion.

Now, you just called me a liar based on your inability to follow the posts on a thread, quite foolish of you.

154 posted on 05/17/2002 11:45:11 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I called you a liar based on the fact that you lied. You said it was a different subject, when it obviously wasn't. And your silly parsing of what clauses you claim to have been addressing at each juncture doesn't change that.
155 posted on 05/18/2002 1:12:09 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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Comment #156 Removed by Moderator

To: xm177e2
"PIM Fortuyn, the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered last week was a powerful advocate or paedophilia"

This needs to be read. Fortuyn was evil, no conservative should support him just because he favored the free market.

Yes I agree, and thanks for the ping.

The only thing I can add will probably be unpopular, but I think it too should be mentioned. In no way do I support pedophilia or pedastery (not sure of the spelling but I believe it means adult-child sex where both are of the same sex). I would ask however at what age does a relationship fall into these catagories?

Obviously a sexual relationship with a 5 year old, a person who can't decide for him or herself, is abuse. But in our own not too distant past it was fairly common for women to marry in their teens. There were many reasons of course, including high child mortality rates and a hard lifestyle with much shorter life expectancy.

Remember Ellie May Clampett from The Beverly Hillbillies who was a family disgrace and considered an old maid because she was still unmarried at 18? Yes, it was just a television show, but it was based in fact.

When I grew up in the 50's and '60s in a suburb of Pittsburgh it was not uncommon then for teens to marry. Sometimes a teen would marry someone much older. It may have been frowned on but it did happen.

Amusingly enough I recall that when I married my childhood sweetheart, I was 28 and she was 22. We never dated in high school, but have been happily married with 3 kids for almost 25 years. The age difference did raise a few eyebrows though and that was in the 70's!

And when I visited family in more rural areas even in the 60's and 70's it wasnt odd for teens to be married, sometimes to someone older, and be living and working on a farm. One woman I knew was married at 14 (to an older man) and had 6 kids by the time she was 21! They raised 'em all and had a wonderful life.

In the Netherlands I believe the age of consent is 12. Personally I think that is too young. And when I grew up Sweet Sixteen was considered passable - barely - where I lived. It is now 18 I think.

However it strikes me as curious as to how the age of consent and acceptablity by society has been seemingly creeping upwards. After raising 3 wonderful kids I have to admit one regret is not having had them sooner. My youngest boy is 12 and at 51 I am sad to report my body won't let me play basball or football with him the way I could with his older brother and sister.

prisoner6

157 posted on 05/18/2002 4:10:23 AM PDT by prisoner6
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To: A.J.Armitage
I see that you list drinking as one of your three hobbies on your FReeper homepage, that explains a lot. I've always contended that alcohol should be only consumed by men, not punk college kids. And I see that you have no problem talking and behaving like white trash, you aren't really from Illinois, are you? They don't take kindly to mouthy, drunken young punks there.

While you're at college, ask them for help with your inability to read, or comprehend what you read, just blame it on the people at the trailer park where you grew up, no one had a book to lend you.

Libertarian? No wonder! You come to a thread like this, where the title includes the word depraved, like a moth to a flame.

158 posted on 05/18/2002 5:56:25 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: rudeboy666
Remember, you do not need to support or agree with Pim's program in order to be outraged with the sickness that is spewing from the radical left.

Rudeboy, I'm not sure if you meant to address your post to me, but I'll respond anyway.

This Pim revelation changes nothing about the way I feel about the radical left. They are hysterical manipulators and nothing more. Their characterization of Pim as some kind of extreme-right racist is absurd. The fact that he was labelled this way, yet stuck to his guns and was popular, is the biggest part of why I liked him. I could even tolerate his homosexuality, since, after all, that is a behavior engaged in by consenting adults.

But pedophilia crosses another line altogether -- a child is victimized -- and sympathy towards it is completely unacceptable in any human being, especially a leader. So at this point I scratch Pim off my list of politicians I'm cheering for (or would have cheered for, had he been alive), but I still hope his party does well -- assuming they're not pedophiles or pedophile sympathizers -- and I hope other right-wing European politicians (like Le Pen) do well, too.

And I still regard the lefties as a bunch of scheming weasels. To be honest, I mainly cheer for the European right because I want to see the European left punished. When you boil it all down, they're all collectivists, both right and left, so neither is real cool in an absolute sense. Another thing that I like about the right is that they're nationalists and more likely to keep the EU fragmented.

159 posted on 05/18/2002 7:04:54 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: VinnyTex
Why in the name of the Wide World of Sports am I on this ping list? Please remove my name immediately.
160 posted on 05/18/2002 7:38:26 AM PDT by strela
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