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Washington's Silly Season
Orbat ^ | 5/31/02

Posted on 05/31/2002 9:11:00 AM PDT by swarthyguy

A respected American scholar says on the evening network news that the situation between India and Pakistan is so dangerous it makes the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 look like [children's games?] - your editor does not hear so well, so the metaphor may not be entirely accurate, but the scholar's intent was clear.

Had the Cuban Missile Crisis escalated to nuclear war, North America, Europe, and the Soviet Union would have been devastated. The US may well have attacked Chinese targets, to ensure these fellow communists did not provide a recovery base for the Soviets. US and allied bases around the world would have been attacked as well, so a good proportion of the world would have been reduced to radioactive ash, or taken from days to years dying of the residual radioactivity: the bombs of those days were big and dirty.

The world's population was about half of what it was today, and anywhere between 100- and 300-million people would have died, perhaps more. Most of them would have been bystanders to the American-Soviet dispute. The US DIA, using a highly inflated set of assumptions, says up to 12 million would die in an Indo-Pakistan nuclear exchange. Very few of these will be bystanders. Unless your editor is mistaken, the Indo-Pakistan crisis is child's play compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis, not the other way around.

Now, of course, what may underlie the scholar's statement is a racist assumption: India and Pakistan could spin out of control because after all, they are just plain ignorant brown natives. Washington-Moscow had the whole show under control, presumably because they were run by wise white men.

Your editor would like to ask this scholar some questions.

Suppose that to America's north lies not Canada, but the Soviet Union, circa 1970. The Soviets have been supporting a ruthless insurgency in New England for 15 years, and both sides daily exchange small arms fire, and on most days, mortar and artillery fire. Yet for 15 years the situation has not escalated into conventional war, leave alone nuclear war. Is this a plausible assumption? Three years ago, the Soviets quietly seize American controlled territory in Maine. The Americans fight back, taking heavy losses, but never cross the border, limiting themselves to fighting entirely on their own territory. Is this a plausible assumption? Including 1999, America and the Soviet Union have fought four wars. Yet never has either deliberately targeted any civilian facility - no command centers in a populated area, no power plants, no water facility, no arms factory, no telecommunications node. They have attacked only rail and road choke points that are directly related to the movement of enemy forces at the front. Is this a plausible assumption? If the American scholar can answer yes to all, then your editor would have to concede that there are some analogies between Cuba 1962 and South Asia 2002. If he answers no, then your editor has a favor to ask of him.

Please don't condescend to the South Asians. They have shown greater restraint and greater humanity to civilians than your country has in times of peril. Maybe one reason neither India or Pakistan seems overly concerned about the dangers of a nuclear war is that both understand the daily nuclear threats made by President Musharraf are just bluster. Indian and Pakistani generals could conceivably loose nuclear weapons at each other's advancing armies if faced with a massive defeat - it's a remote possibility, but it is a possibility. To suggest or to imply either country would deliberately aim at civilian centers is a belief that grows out of your mindset. It has no bearing on South Asia.

Now, your editor has little hope that the American scholar will understand any of this. These are old debates. Those Americans who know something about India and Pakistan do not need to be convinced. Those that know nothing will not be convinced. Nonetheless, there are other people more open-minded, and for them your editor will discuss tomorrow why conventional Americans notions of war fighting, strategy, crisis management and the like have absolutely no relevance to the present situation in South Asia.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cuba; india; nuclear; pakistan
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Well, responses welcome. OK, not welcome but will be interesting to read, i'm sure.
1 posted on 05/31/2002 9:11:00 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: swarthyguy
Perhaps they are calculating in the probability that it will go nuclear? Some schools of thought hold that we would never have devestated the world over Cuba.
2 posted on 05/31/2002 9:17:08 AM PDT by Ingtar
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To: Ingtar
But we'll never know that for sure because Khrushchev backed down, albeit with a backroom deal that made the US take its missiles out of Turkey.
3 posted on 05/31/2002 9:18:40 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Ingtar
And not as a racial statement - the invective and saber rattling makes this sound more likely. And they are fighting over what they both believe is part of their country... this makes a large difference.
4 posted on 05/31/2002 9:19:56 AM PDT by Ingtar
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To: Ingtar
 Some schools of thought hold that we would never have
devestated the world over Cuba.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff ordered the ships maintaining
the picket line to sink the Russian ship that was approaching
them ostensibly to breach the line.  Had the ship not stopped,
we would have sunk her.  Does that answer your question?

5 posted on 05/31/2002 10:11:06 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: swarthyguy
See post #5.
6 posted on 05/31/2002 10:12:05 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: swarthyguy
Well, our friend is doing a bit of condescending himself here, IMHO. But here's the bottom line - for all the noise the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. did NOT end up lobbing nukes at each other. I'm hoping a similar restraint occurs between India and Pakistan. It better, because anyone who speaks so blandly of "only" 12 million dead, few of whom are "bystanders" sends chills up my spine. (Curious usage, BTW - surely he can't mean that there will be 12 million principals and no civilians killed...)
7 posted on 05/31/2002 10:15:18 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: swarthyguy
I'm sure the scholarly expert would be horrified at the suggestion that he is a racist. No, more likely the problem is short memory and an inclination to exaggerate his own field of specialization, like most scholars.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union was a tightly controlled government. Pakistan swarms with Afghan immigrants and Muslim extremists. Its intelligence service and army are susceptible to extremist influence too. The problem isn't racial, it's religious. I'd rather trust Stalin with nuclear weapons than Bin Ladin. No, Stalin was not a nice guy. He murdered up to a hundred million people, but at least he kept his nuclear weapons and his military under tight control.

8 posted on 05/31/2002 10:24:24 AM PDT by Cicero
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To: gcruse
You're right about that. After the Bay of Pigs, the Soviet leaders considered JFK to be an inexperienced weakling who would back down under pressure. It took him several years, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Berlin Airlift, to remove that impression. Foreign policy under Kennedy was very badly handled by his crew of the Best & Brightest from Harvard.
9 posted on 05/31/2002 10:28:06 AM PDT by Cicero
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To: swarthyguy
"They have shown greater restraint and greater humanity to civilians than your country has in times of peril."

Yep, that is why you guys keep fighting each other and continue to suffer. You claim moral superiority and yet people are still dying because of it. Isreal is using the same tactic with the "palastinians", and look where they are at. The US was also restrained from toppling Saddam, and look where that got us. We nuked Japan, and look what happened there. We helped to administer a "regime change" in Nazi Germany and won only after we went at there manufacturing sites in populated areas.

Crap or get off the pot. I don't not see a war, but after decades of this going on, the question has to be asked: Is strategy really worth all this death and destruction?

10 posted on 05/31/2002 10:31:18 AM PDT by rudypoot
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To: rudypoot
Can i have some your stash? It seems like some powerful s*** u have in your pipe.
11 posted on 05/31/2002 10:37:45 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: swarthyguy
rudypoot member since May 31st, 2002

12 posted on 05/31/2002 10:41:27 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: swarthyguy
This author is obvoiusly unfamiler wtih the "Doomsday" machine. ;-)
13 posted on 05/31/2002 10:47:23 AM PDT by joebuck
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To: Cicero
"and the Berlin Airlift, "

Not to be picky, but that took place in Truman's time.

14 posted on 05/31/2002 10:52:49 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: swarthyguy
All I am saying is things are so complicated over there, given the history between the two countries and the terrors present, that no one is willing to lead to a solution. Until that happens, well, heaven help us.
15 posted on 05/31/2002 12:09:50 PM PDT by rudypoot
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To: Cicero
you said He(Stalin) murdered up to a hundred million people, but so how are nukes worse than this? Plus what's forgotten is that Pakistan has promised it WILL resort to a FIRST STRIKE policy and is blackmailing the entire world with its nuclear sabre rattling. India is virtually inviting a first strike by its no first use policy.
16 posted on 05/31/2002 12:10:07 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: rudypoot
More equivalency logic. Pakistan has threatened FIRST USE.
17 posted on 05/31/2002 12:10:44 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: rudypoot
It is NOT complicated. Musharraf supports, sponsors and sends jihadis across the border to kill women and kids.

Complication comes when the US is so committed to a ineffectual, prevaricating dictator that the entire waronterror becomes a strategy to keep musharraf in power.

18 posted on 05/31/2002 12:29:23 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: swarthyguy
If it is not complicated, then what do you suggest India to do? How do you remove Musharraf under these circumstances? I back India because India is one of the good guys and Pakistan threatened them first, as you pointed out. However, I am at a loss on what steps to take next. If Musharraf is toppled, how secure are the nuclear devices going to be? heck, are they secured now? I don't see my moral equivalence here. Something must be done about Pakistan, but the presence of nuclear arms presents a whole new ball of wax. Hopefully the US arm twisting will do the trick.
19 posted on 05/31/2002 12:55:13 PM PDT by rudypoot
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To: rudypoot
Go into Kashmir and take out the jihadi fortresses for starters. Break up Pakistan, let india administer the parts the US does not to be involved in. US goes whole hog in it war strategy killing alqaeda etc on the western border. Squeeze them all into Kashmir and eliminate at our(UK/US) leisure with India's help if needed.
20 posted on 05/31/2002 12:58:19 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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