Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Maybe I am crazy, but I find this fascinating. Say what you will about Jerry Nadler debating Constitutional limitations of power, it does show that despite what people say, the Constitution does still matter. Incidentally, the neo-rebs might be interested to know who the first President was to terminate a treaty without the consent of Congress: You get one guess.
1 posted on 06/06/2002 8:33:38 AM PDT by Huck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


To: nicollo; Sandy
Does this interest you at all? Incidentally, upon a cursory examination, and having listened to the debate, I find the GOP argument weak. It is clear to me that both sides are biased by their attitude towards the ABM treaty. However, it seems to me the most compelling argument, and perhaps the most republican, is that the Constitution does say that treaties are laws, and the power to repeal laws resides in both</> houses of Congress combined.
2 posted on 06/06/2002 8:36:21 AM PDT by Huck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
"Incidentally, the neo-rebs might be interested to know who the first President was to terminate a treaty without the consent of Congress."

Unless I am mistaken, the treaty was never ratified. If so, the treaty was not in effect from a legal standpoint anyway, but was only a voluntary issue. So the president terminating it gives the Senate no standing.

Are these libs conceding that the President may make a treaty enforceable if they never ratified it???

Congress does so many things like this, leaving the ball up in the air, then tries to take credit: such as not declaring wars when they have an obligation to do so.

3 posted on 06/06/2002 8:50:41 AM PDT by Real Cynic No More
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck; Miss Marple
If this is a guy from Ohio, I bet it's Kucinich (spelling may be off). A REALLY left-wing Democrat. Knocked off Martin Hoke in `96.
7 posted on 06/06/2002 9:07:32 AM PDT by hchutch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
I guess I glaze over pretty easily when a writer has two hands--"on the one hand", but "on the other hand."

It seems scary, and in a real sense illogical, but when I see the term "supreme law of the land" I think, "Constitution." Clearly nobody intended, let us hope, that the president and the Senate alone could modify the First Amendment (for example) without so much as a by-your-leave from the States. But that's what pops into my head.

OTOH it would seem that if a treaty is in fact a "law" it would be backed by Congress as well as the president. Yet the House has no role in treaty making, and the president is alone responsible for foreign policy unless a treaty is to be ratified. But what is a treaty with the US, if a new president can on his word alone abrogate it six months after the signing/ratification? Some "supreme law"!!

This whole issue is quite similar to the war powers issue: it's gotten to the point where presidents who feel like fighting--or, say, bombarding asperin factories--just do it. The role of the Congress is much attenuated. But if the Congress did ever declare war, what role would it have in terminating that emergency state?

Worst of all, of course, is the nonsequeteur known as the 17th Amendment, which converted the Senate from representatives of the States to representatives of the people of the states. The whole rationale of the Senate was, after all, to represent the State governments; now it's just a funny way of districting a second house of the legislature. And, since no State may be deprived of its equal representation in the Senate without its consent, it really required unanimous consent of the states to properly ratify that amendment.

Which gets me onto one of my hobby horses, the fact that the Senate would do its job better if it conducted its business electronically from the respective State capitols . . . and then you wouldn't need seperate elections for Senators; each State could be represented by its own Governor.

Then if a president were impeached he would be judged by a jury of his peers--and if a judge were nominated or impeached, that judge's respect for the States' prerogatives would be taken into consideration much as it was before the states allowed the 17th Amendment to be implemented.

There really should be some change in the Constitution (or at the very least a landmark Supreme Court precedent) to reflect the lessons we should have learned from the machinations of x42 . . .

11 posted on 06/06/2002 9:15:33 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
Congressman Hyde is correct: The House of Represetatives has no say, one way or another, about treaties. Only the Senate can give its consent to treaties.
36 posted on 06/06/2002 9:57:34 AM PDT by Jay W
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
Good questions, good thread. I can't imagine that the President has any authority to unilaterally render a treaty null and void. Such a contention flies in the face of the separation of powers doctrine, imo. Treaties are laws, and the President is simply not authorized to revoke laws with nothing but the stroke of his pen. My guess is that the ABM treaty is null and void due to the fact that one of the parties (USSR) no longer exists, but that's beside the point of this thread.

Have you looked at Goldwater v. Carter? President Carter unilaterally ended the 1955 Mutual Defense with Taiwan. Senator Goldwater and other members of Congress filed suit claiming that Carter's decision was unconstitutional because he hadn't gotten the consent of 2/3 of the Senate. The Supreme Court dismissed the case on various grounds, some justices saying that the case wasn't ripe for review, other justices saying that it was a political question not a legal question for the Court to decide. Bottom line, if this matter makes it to the Court, it would be a case of first impression, meaning something that the Court hasn't ruled on before.

63 posted on 06/06/2002 12:04:44 PM PDT by Sandy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
I would like to see an amendment leaving the passing, rejecting, or termination of treaties left to public, popular, vote.
108 posted on 06/06/2002 8:53:19 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck
Did you get to this already? If not, here's something on the subject:

Treaty Docs

I didn't read it.

112 posted on 06/06/2002 9:39:36 PM PDT by nicollo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Huck;all
I just want to bring up something else that's been alluded to but not directly mentioned on this thread: the very first sentence of the Constitution after the preamble. "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States...." As it's been correctly pointed out that treaties are, in fact, legislation, under the Constitution, we can safely arrive at the conclusion that treaties should be treated (d'oh!) as though they were passed by Congress. The reason that they aren't passed by Congress has to do with efficiency. It makes much more sense that the President should negotiate and draw up the treaties with foreign leaders, than for all of Congress to get involved in the negotiations. And even the ratification thereof can get unwieldy if it's constantly being passed back and forth between both houses. So to make up for the absence of the lower house in ratifying treaties, the Founders wisely upped the Senate requirement to 2/3.

But since it's an act of legislation, and the Constitution assigns the legislative power to Congress alone, Congress must be considered the fundamental author of any treaty. You can think of the President and 2/3 of the Senate as a "special Congress" for treaty-making purposes, one that is delegated the authority, in these particular circumstances only, to speak for the whole Congress.

122 posted on 06/07/2002 7:36:06 AM PDT by inquest
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson