Israel begins its West Bank 'Berlin Wall'

The Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | 06/17/2002 | Alan Philps

[Torie]

The beauty of the PA not liking where the fence is being built, is that they might realize that time is running out. Maybe that will help concentrate their focus in a positive direction, but I seriously doubt it. More likely it will be in a negative direction, so things might get worse before they get better. One step backward for two steps forward.

[Nuke'm Glowing]

I tend to agree. The PA will just intensify their terrorist attacks and they will end up paying for it by getting their permanent border established. Where they can not cross into Israel for work. Where Israel grants them statehood and says "see ya" to these scum and Jordan basically re-inherits the problem of the West Bank. Sounds like a plan to me. Hopefully we shipped them lots of Claymores just in case the fence needs some low-tech solutions to a low life problem.

[monkeyshine]

What you are missing from the argument is leverage. Why would Israel withdraw to the pre 1967 border in exchange for nothing?

The deal has always been "land for peace". The land is the only negotiating tool Israel has. Make peace, get land. Make no peace, get no land. The fence is meant to be a prophylactic, not a border... although I admit that it will probably be a defacto border, which is probably why Israel refuses to build it on the green line. They are giving up a lot of land (defacto) in the hopes that it will end the terrorism, not create a peaceful coexistence.

[Senator Pardek]

I was gonna put a fence around my humble estate, but I did not want to offend any British or Mohawks (or my landlord).

[Senator Pardek]

Er - scratch that, and make it Mohicans.

[Jorge]

"Since when is building a wall to protect your population.."

In your territory or someone else's?

Well when you're trying to keep "someone else" out, the only sensible place would be the border between your territory and the "someone else's".

Of course I consider the West Bank and Gaza to belong to Israel anyway since they won the territories fair and square in a war the Arabs started.

[monkeyshine]

You'll be happy to know that Geraldo Rivera just said on Fox News "if the fence is built 'more or less' on the '67 border, I'm all for it."

[McGavin999]

The 'whites' will be in Tel Aviv and the 'blacks' will be in the West Bank," said Mohammed Dahlan, a retired Palestinian security chief.

No Mr. Dahlan, that's not it at all. The Israelis will be in Tel Aviv and the Palestinians will be in the West Bank. The Palestinians are not being fenced in, they are being fenced OUT. They are perfectly free to wander where ever they want in their own portion, they can travel to Jordan or any other country, provided they travel through proper checkpoints on public transportation that will not be permitted to stop in Israel for any reason whatever. They are free to trade among themselves, to build their businesses, coin their own money, pursue their own futures, but that future will NOT include exploding children. At least not in Israel.

[Torie]

Well the big problem is Jerusalem and its suburbs. The rest is rather distracting detail. Where does Rivera want the fence built there? Maybe the wailing wall could be part of the fence. :)

[Askel5]

It's disputed territory according to the Israelis,

Was it a part of the UN's Divine intervention and partition or not?

Perhaps it's ignorant of me, but I draw a distinction between Jews who concern themselves (as Jews) with matters of faith and Israelis who (as Jews ... however actually "religious") concern themselves with the purely secular and political matters of State.

Because "Israelis" owe their State Nationality solely to the will of the World State who created their nation, I find it hard to believe they are somehow possessed of supra-national rights to claim, settle and demand annexation of whatever regions they wish based on ancient settlements or some exclusive promise from their God.

If this be the case, I suspect Mexico is watching intently. Sustained Executive-level and federal legislative encouragement of Mexico's illegal settlement programs is proceeding apace. Probably only a matter of time before they use Israel's technicalities to press their case at the UN and reclaim territories we basically took by force.

If what Israel is doing is just, I see no reason predominantly Mexican settlements in traditionally Mexican lands not be returned to Mexico.

[Torie]

Rather more recent events have considerably buttressed Israel's case for border adjustment above and beyond ancient historical claims, which I also reject by the way.

[Askel5]

Of course I consider the West Bank and Gaza to belong to Israel anyway since they won the territories fair and square in a war the Arabs started.

Sorta like the Mexican-American war only different?

[Askel5]

Rather more recent events have considerably buttressed Israel's case

How so, Torie?

[Alouette]

If what Israel is doing is just, I see no reason predominantly Mexican settlements in traditionally Mexican lands not be returned to Mexico.

You have it exactly bass-ackwards. The Aztlan Nation is cheerleading the Jew-destroying Palestinians.

[Torie]

First, lots of Jews now live around Jerusalem. I see no reason to expel them. It is not practicable to achieve security there with partition. The egg cannot and should not be unscrambled. Second, border adjustments may be necessary to afford Israel adequate security against a group that for at least for another generation, if not several, wants to destroy them. If American security and surivival really required taking Baja California because it was a nest of terrorism that could not be contained, I would grab it in a second.

[LarryLied]

If the fence works, do you see the suicide attacks moving to other countries?

[valkyrieanne]

Fence, heck. Build a 10-ft wall with razor wire on the top.

[Richard Axtell]

Your posts are right on and save me some typing. One thing I will add; so many delusioned "Oslo believers" simply have not realized that there is such a thing as a point of no return. Arafat deliberately passed that point in the summer of 2000 when he refused to accept any reasonable peace, and began this "second intifada" and subsequent "suicide bomb offensive." Now, Sharon must defend his country, and so the wall will be built. Penetrable? Of course. Effective? Better than nothing. Can Arafat continue the offensive with the wall in place? Well, he can try. Can he continue to lead an economically and physically isolated Palestine, with no work, no trade, and no hope of any change? Perhaps not. Perhaps some brutal rival for power will off the vermin, as should have happened long ago.

[monkeyshine]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I'd say yes it's highly probable. If the doctrine is that it is blessed to murder by suicide, then that doctrine will be applied to other struggles.

But the doctrine isn't that crystal clear. I can envision the justification for Hamas to use the tactic against a peace-enforcing Palestinian self government. But I am not sure if the doctrine will allow murdering fellow Muslims.

In the end, I'm not sure it matters. Muslims killing and warring against other Muslims is nothing new, so I am not sure how relevent the technique is.

[Askel5]

Oh, c'mon Alouette. You're not that stupid.

The sound and fury rarely comports with the truth of the matter.

Besides, I have a sneaking suspicion the "recent events" of which Torie speaks fall predominantly under Dramatic Attacks on Israel which (much like the terrorism against the United States which renders our Constitution and Rules of War moot) only afford Israel the "right" to bend the rules now and again.

Just as the victims of the Rainbow Coalition here in the United States have adopted Israel's "treat me special because I'm equal" attitude and the United States (now also a victim of Arab terrorists) looks to adopt certain Israeli strategies of political murder, espionage, secrecy and handling of Non-Prisoners ... I suspect Mexico is content to let folks mouth off about the Pallies even as it watches the US support the Israeli precedents by which Mexico (and its real global allies) will bite into the United States at will when the time is right.

You don't think for a moment that a nation as critical to the marxist Drug Offensive is not saturated with our enemies, do you? You know better than that. Mexico is just biding its time. No one puts up with the patronizing they've gotten unless it serves their purposes. The smoke signals have started ... what with their missing cyanide and such.

Like the left in this nation, they're just perfectly happy to let their mouthier minions serve as useful idiots. My best example (as always) being the way the left has its disparate unwashed united under the Litmus Test that is Legal Abortion ... as if the right weren't going to impose it on them anyway courtesy of Kissinger/Scowcroft's NSSM-200/NSDM-314.

Besides ... with the exception of those who dehumanize the Palestinians on a regular basis ... everybody supports them from time to time as suits their political purposes. They were manufactured to be just such a political ping pong ball.