Posted on 06/18/2002 6:07:04 AM PDT by jordan8
A two-fer from Neal Boortz.
AN ABSOLUTELY DISGRACEFUL, DISGUSTING AMERICAN
… and there are many more like her.
This is the letter that appeared in USA Today yesterday.
Call me a naïve girl from Iowa, but I find it unbelievable that some U.S. citizens think we have to allow terrorists to use our laws to their advantage (“U.S. move sparks legal questions,” News, Tuesday).Surely the terrorists must be laughing. We are now living in a different world where terrorism is the new enemy.
Personally, I don’t care what rights are lost. If the government wants to tap my phone line, my computer or anything else, I say, go for it. If giving up my rights prevents one death, one tragedy or one more Sept. 11, it is a price I will gladly pay.
As for those terrorism suspects being held without an attorney, I say, throw away the keys. If their attorneys don’t like it, too bad.
Marianne Avery Dubuque, Iowa
My Gawd. What a pathetic American. Can you believe this? This woman doesn’t care what rights she loses, so long as the government protects her from terrorism. She’s a politician’s dream. No – it’s worse than that. She’s a dictator’s dream, a despot’s fantasy.
Marianne Avery is a disgrace to the memory of every single man and woman who has ever served in the uniform of the armed forces of this country. She’s an embarrassment to the quality of government education, from which she no doubt matriculated. In about two weeks on July 3rd she should crawl under her bed with a 48 hour supply of food and water – and a box of Depends – and not come out until July 5th. Better yet, just find her and lock her up for the Fourth of July holiday. No parades, no picnics, no fireworks. Surely we can find some reason to hold her. Is the public display of abject stupidity illegal in Iowa?
While we’re at it. Can someone in Dubuque please do something to screw up her voter registration? Put her down as deceased. It’s almost true anyway --- whatever love of freedom she may have had at one time in her life is dead.
My God save our Republic from the Marianne Averys of this world.
UN-AMERICAN TO DEFEND AN ACCUSED TERRORIST?
And now --- another person who doesn’t understand the nature of freedom and the basics of our Constitution. His name is Bill O’Reilly and he does a television show on the Fox News Network. I heard him say last night that it was “un-American” for an attorney to defend an accused terrorist in a U.S. Court.
Nonsense. Just the opposite is true. There are few acts MORE American than going into a court of law to defend the Constitution of the United States --- and that is PRECISELY what defense attorneys do.
This is basic grade school stuff --- but maybe someone can get it to O’Reilly to fill in some of the gaps in his education.
Government has one asset the rest of us don’t have. Government can use force to accomplish its goals. If government wants more money it can use force to simply go out and seize it. If we want more money we have to either borrow it or earn it. If government wants to deny one of us our liberty or our life, it can use force to do so. We cannot use force to deny someone else either liberty or life, except in self-defense.
Now – since our laws give the government the legal authority to use force to deny someone of their liberty or their life, our founding fathers thought it might be a rather good idea to set forth a specific set of rules and guidelines that must be followed before the government can act. Those rules and guidelines are set forth in our Constitution, the Bill of Rights and our laws.
What is the role of an attorney representing an accused terrorist? His role is not to get the terrorist off. His role is to make sure that the government meets all the requirements set forth in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and in our laws before it acts to take away someone’s liberty or life. The criminal defense lawyer is, in effect, defending not the criminal, not the terrorist, but rather he is in court as a representative of the Constitution; an advocate for the Bill of Rights; the protector of our Rule of Law.
O’Reilly needs to think this one over a bit more.
The "legalities" are irrelevant. We are at war, whether you want to admit it or not. Whether the Congress declares it or not.
As for "feeding you any crap", I wouldn't dare. You're mind is made up and your tin-foil is worn out.
And no, while being forced to pay for airport security through taxes is the wrong way to go, it doesn't constitute a lost freedom.
TomB, Well it would be better if you were paying attention, but.. Okay.. I'll tell you in brief.
Anti-1st Amendment "freedoms" - CFR Bill that was signed a few months ago, ahh well perhaps you don't really consider that a "loss of Freedom" but it is, regardless if it is to you or not.
Right to Peaceably assembly- Oh sure you can Peaceably assemble if you Jump thru all the Hoops, Have all your papers in order, (I.E. Parade License) Also Please Refer to the "ANGRY MOB" crap that was endured during The election.
Right to Bring Grievances to the Government- Well. We can Look at Waco, Pella case now, and any person that's had their house, car, LAND confiscated by the Government who Never had a "TRIAL" (This Part of the Amendment Is also connected to 4th, 5th , 6th, 7th, 8th,9th,10th, 11th AND 14th Amendment,, (We'll get to that later)
Freedom OF Religion- Okay I'll will Try to be Brief on this point, But this one I could go on and on with. Please Refer to what Ashcroft said a Few Weeks ago, You remember, about putting "SPYWARE" inside Churches and Mosque Followed by ALL public Places. Perhaps you are behind this action because you feel it well "Grab" the Muslims, however... All churches are included in this, AND what's to say they wont be coming after YOUR church/ Religion Next.. (Perhaps Not Bush, But we need to think a LOT further ahead then this president) Please also note for a "MOSQUE" or Church to turn over a members list to the Government is in a sense having them know HOW you worship.. Extremely Dangerous, and Absolutely forbidden by the LAW. (Please also note that a certain tax exempt status that most churches follow, they are prohibited BY LAW to talk about "POLITICS" to the People. (Please Refer to IRS Tax codes for Reference)
Freedom of the Press... While I can't name any GOVERNMENT infringements on this part of the 1st amendment right off the bat, I can say that the Press sold us all out to the DC elites long ago. They are nothing short then D.C. enablers. (IMHO)
For an Amendment that CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW, there sure are a lot of LAW'S being Placed on this Amendment ALONE!
Anti-Second Amendment Freedoms- Need I really Go here? Please refer to all the Gun "Law's" on the books. And as another poster said on this thread, its only a matter of time before the gun grabbers want to grab ALL the gun's "to keep them out of the hands of the Terrorist". This Amendment has also been grossly infringed upon.
3rd Amendment- Oh on a GOOD Note, This Amendment is the LEAST infringed upon,, Perhaps theirs HOPE!?
Anti-Fourth Amendment- Well this in and of its self is Grossly infringed upon too. The Amendment reads as Follows;The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Today we are only "secure" after we've been Searched in a nutshell.And I'm not talking only "AIR PORT" either. Ever been at a random road block? This also pertains to the Pella case, where as they have no PROBABLE CAUSE (or at least Proved it) and they are DETAINING HIM. Perhaps in your mind you justify this because of the "Dirty bomb" mantra that is being put out... Until its proven in a court of law, Or He's even arrested, its Propaganda at best. (Please Refer to a Future President that is Anti-what ever you are then ask yourself if you really want them to have this power!) They have all the mean's to come after you. This Amendment also is against Government SPYING on the AMERICAN PEOPLE, Weather it be Following them around on foot, Or tracking everyone's movement via Cam's. (Please refer to thread posted on FR about all the Cam's going up in DC) It is a Sad Day in this Country that we all have to be put under surveillance for the "better" as we are all "GUILTY" and Must prove our INNOCENCE BY COMPLYING! Don't even get me started on the New Face Rec. cameras they want to "try". Forget it! The Amendments I posted are 1-4 in Brief... However if you wish for me to further break down the Bill of Rights I will Continue.. Live Free or Die Trying
Maybe you can tell me what freedoms I have lost since 9-11?
Now let me explain. The thrust of the question involves those who have stated that we have lost freedoms as a result of 9-11 and the resulting "war on terrorism".
Anti-1st Amendment "freedoms" - CFR Bill that was signed a few months ago,
While I agree it was unconstitutional, this has absolutely nothing to do with the WOT.
Right to Peaceably assembly-
Perhaps you can point me to a law or EO that was passed that restricts assembly since 9-11.
Right to Bring Grievances to the Government-
Once again, was there some law passed that changed that since 9-11?
Freedom OF Religion-
I fail to see how anything you've listed there has impacted my freedom to practice my religion.
Freedom of the Press... While I can't name any GOVERNMENT infringements on this part of the 1st amendment right off the bat, I can say that the Press sold us all out to the DC elites long ago
Which, of course, has NOTHING to do with freedom of the press. And none of that has changed with 9-11.
For an Amendment that CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW, there sure are a lot of LAW'S being Placed on this Amendment ALONE!
After 9-11?
Today we are only "secure" after we've been Searched in a nutshell.And I'm not talking only "AIR PORT" either. Ever been at a random road block?
Actually yes, but it was prior to 9-11.
Honestly, you've failed miserably to show how my freedoms have been impacted since 9-11.
This is more of a threat to us than any terrorist, the government trying to abolish trials and telling us "they are guilty" and not backing it up and expecting us not to question them because it is a "war". I would feel slightly better if they were doing this because of incompetence. If they are doing this because they think we don't need to know, or they think they know what's best and that they don't always need to follow the Constitution, then I'm really really worried.
If this man is such a menace and is such a threat to our way of life then the government should not be afraid of putting him on trial and coughing up the evidence. We aren't sheep, this isn't the O.J. trial.
What nation are we at war with? Legalities are quite important when it comes to the Constitution and to our rights and freedoms. During wartime, the executive branch is given quite a bit more power. Make no mistake, PATRIOT is more serious than you can imagine, and will be hanging on for quite a long time, sunsetted clauses notwithstanding.
If you have studied government, you would know that only Congress can declare war. A joint resolution is simply a feel-good thing that the pols can take back to their constituents and say "see, we are going after them there terrorists, your going to be safe". A war is quite a bit different.
A war implies a beginning and and end. We have neither here. The government, both liberals and conservatives, have made these police actions very broad, and never-ending. Very much like Vietnam. It's in their interests to keep it open and not have a real "war" that has a start and an end, it gives them more power, it helps them at the elections.
If this were in fact a war, we'd be failing miserable at it. We let the really bad guys get away, and we are ignoring Saudi Arabia (and they are tossing us bones, like the group they say had the SAMs, so we are going to keep ignoring them). Hell Bush said we stood beside anybody who fights terrorism* and we are not doing so.
* Except Israel.
There'll be two of us who thinks it's wrong. May not be able to help Kevin, since by then it'll be too late, but he should have the comfort of knowing we think it's wrong he's being held without a trial.
If your going to bring that up, you might as well bring up the fact that Clinton and Co. ignored what they were trying to do, and ignored all of the subsequent attacks. If Clinton and Co. had paid attention to this trial, they might have went after OBL and 9/11 would be just another normal day.
Keep your Rose colored glasses on. You Fail to see just as Germans Failed to see. You glorify all the big brother activity you wish, and reap what you sow.
You fail to see any Dangers purposed in the US Patriot Act, You fail to see what's Defines a "terrorist". You fail to see that Just because they have the ability to peep into your church doesn't "harm you in anyway" You fail to see that because you justify government intrusion. You are not in the same Mindset as if X42 and Reno were in Office passing this crapOla.
you surrender Liberty at all costs, You are no strong enough to Defend yourself, and because of this you got your pom-poms out ready to Strip ALL AMERICANS RIGHTS away.. because after all "its for the better". You excuse fascist forms of Government to give you a false sense of security. YOU ARE STILL NOT SAFE,,, YOU WILL NEVER BE SAFE. You can live in your hollow empty pitiful government infested America and Take solace my friend, that you have enabled what so many Men Shed blood to stop. You infact have let the Terrorist win by Stripping us of BASIC LIBERTIES. Take comfort in the thought that because they control you thru Fear, you will excuse anything to give you a sense of "SAFETY". You go ahead and pick apart this,, which came right from my heart and soul. You can not argue it, Justify your Stance and call yourself a PATRIOT.. Perhaps a Today's "PC" term AMERICAN... but the two are drastically different!
God bless,
Tammy
And once again YOU FAIL to tell me specifically what freedoms I have lost as a result of 9-11. All I get from you is a continual "were losing our freedoms" diatribe, yet you can't detail even ONE!
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE AND TABLE OF CONTENTS. (a) SHORT TITLE- This Act may be cited as the `Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001'.
TITLE I--ENHANCING DOMESTIC SECURITY AGAINST TERRORISM
Sec. 102. Sense of Congress condemning discrimination against Arab and Muslim Americans
what's that you say TOM?? I Thought they were supposta be PROFILING! LOL
Sec. 103. Increased funding for the technical support center at the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Sec. 105. Expansion of National Electronic Crime Task Force Initiative.
TITLE II--ENHANCED SURVEILLANCE PROCEDURES Sec. 201. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to terrorism.
Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses.
Sec. 203. Authority to share criminal investigative information.
Sec. 209. Seizure of voice-mail messages pursuant to warrants.
Sec. 210. Scope of subpoenas for records of electronic communications.
Sec. 211. Clarification of scope.
Sec. 213. Authority for delaying notice of the execution of a warrant.
Sec. 214. Pen register and trap and trace authority under FISA.
Sec. 222. Assistance to law enforcement agencies.
Sec. 223. Civil liability for certain unauthorized disclosures.
Subtitle A--International Counter Money Laundering and Related Measures
Sec. 311. Special measures for jurisdictions, financial institutions, or international transactions of primary money laundering concern.
Sec. 312. Special due diligence for correspondent accounts and private banking accounts.
TOM please Pay close attention to this PART YOU WILL NOTICE that their is NO Reference to protecting the SOUTH part of the COUNTRY! (although you might hafta take off your rose-colored glasses to see this)
TITLE IV--PROTECTING THE BORDER
Subtitle A--Protecting the Northern Border
Sec. 401. Ensuring adequate personnel on the northern border.
Sec. 402. Northern border personnel. Sec. 403. Access by the Department of State and the INS to certain identifying information in the criminal history records of visa applicants and applicants for admission to the United States.
Sec. 404. Limited authority to pay overtime. Sec. 405. Report on the integrated automated fingerprint identification system for ports of entry and overseas consular posts.
Subtitle C--Preservation of Immigration Benefits for Victims of Terrorism Sec. 421. Special immigrant status. Sec. 422. Extension of filing or reentry deadlines. Sec. 423. Humanitarian relief for certain surviving spouses and children. Sec. 424. `Age-out' protection for children.
MORE? Okay Heres more...
TITLE V--REMOVING OBSTACLES TO INVESTIGATING TERRORISM Sec. 501. Attorney General's authority to pay rewards to combat terrorism. Sec. 502. Secretary of State's authority to pay rewards. Sec. 503. DNA identification of terrorists and other violent offenders. Sec. 504. Coordination with law enforcement. Sec. 505. Miscellaneous national security authorities. Sec. 506. Extension of Secret Service jurisdiction. Sec. 507. Disclosure of educational records. Sec. 508. Disclosure of information from NCES surveys.
Now lean real close to your key board and read this part,
SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS. (a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings: (1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American. (2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom. (3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups. (4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law. (5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets. (6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.
Please NOTE TOMB, A lot of the Stuff you read, does not at all have to do with "TERRORIST" but Enabling agencies to further "investigate American Citizens" Is that enough for you or do you want me to post the long version? LOL!
Perhaps I would understand better of you could give an example as to how the Patroit Act has infringed upon my freedoms as a law abiding citizen.
Please compare the things I have posted and hold the Constitution next to it. Compare Notes so to say. Goodness!
Tom, Please YOU'RE GOING with the MIND set that you have "NOTHING TO HIDE". It is hard to know what walk of life you lead but I will do my best to give you an analogy.
Say you are a Christian Man, who Loves his family, you take political stances that are against abortion, thru your church you belong to the "RIGHT TO LIFE " movement. (I am not saying this is the case, trying to give you a hypothesis)
A Few People (weather you know thru casual contact, or are associated with thru the "RIGHT TO LIVE MOVEMENT" decide that they are going to start attacking "ABORTION CLINICS" Even though you had nothing what so ever to do with this Terrorist action, you are associated to the movement, Guess what you are NOW considered an Enemy of the state, Any and all Means to Prove you are associated with this movement the government now has the power to proceed with. AND you CAN BE JAILED with out warrant.. Does this make better sense instead of using the AMERICAN MUSLIM. ?? Do you see how this can be used against ANYONE?
Goal to do this is to dismantle the "RIGHT TO LIVE MOVEMENT" (Say for the next leftist President that takes office) you're now considered a terrorist,, regardless if you are or not. THIS IS WHAT IT SAYS. Now you can pick and choose any situation you wish, but this is what its saying! PLEASE Understand my Point of view I don't know how much more Clear I could possibly be!
God Bless
Tammy
We are not yet at war with any specific nation. We are at war with a bunch of international terriorists who want to do us in. I'm quite sure that they couldn't care less about a "Congressional declaration of war".
Whether or not we do go to war against a specific country will depend on just how cooperative they are with us in seeking out and destroying terriorists within their countries. And I suspect that the stronger and the more determined we are, the more countries will drop their sponsorship of terriorists.
If you have studied government, you would know that only Congress can declare war.
Thank you for your history lesson. However, I seem to remember that one of our Founders, when he became President, didn't bother to ask the Congress to declare war when he sent the Navy after the Barbary Pirates. If you read the following, you might see some parallels with the task that we currently face.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjprece.html
MY example is REALISTIC, what are you talking about? I posted for you in the USA PATRIOT ACT that it clearly states NOT TO PROFILE MUSLIMS. IT clearly states that. POSTED AGAIN HERE IN BOLD
SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS. (a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings: (1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American. (2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom. (3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups. (4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law. (5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets. (6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing
You are in serious denial Tom, Now I'm Sorry but all of this SURVEILLANCE STUFF is going to NOT affect "TERRORIST" it is more INFRINGEMENTS ON AMERICANS. what part of that DO YOU NOT GRASP?
To use the analogy I gave above TomB, are you stating for me on this public Forum that the US PATRIOT ACT would not "label you a "TERRORIST"?? IF those circumstances were to actually take place? THEY WOULD and they SAY they would.
Either way, this government has lost the will to be as strong and as determined as you or I might like. Rather than take the fight to the areas where the terrorists are being supplied/supported out of (such as Saudi Arabia) or stand by their pledge of helping others fight terrorists (such as Israel) they decide instead they'd rather be able to read our e-mail or listen in on our calls at will without warrants, and to detain people without trial. In other words, it's easier for them to fight the terrorists or attempt to here, all the while starting to infringe on our rights, rather than taking the fight to it's source.
OK when I saw that title I was afraid somebody was posting "I am a bad American" AGAIN...
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