Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: jennyp
No, you're misreading it. Britten came up with a more accurate figure for the differences in sequence. He was not trying to measure the number of mutations needed to produce those differences in sequence.

No. Let's look at how the original one was done:

The helix at this point would contain one strand from each species, and from there it was a fairly straightforward matter to "melt" the strands to infer the number of good base pairs.

As can be seen, this was a base for base comparison. No adjustments at all being made. Let's continue with the article YOU cited:

The problem with the old studies is that the methods did not recognize differences due to events of insertion and deletion that result in parts of the DNA being absent from the strands of one or the other species.

As can be seen, the original method did not take account of deletions which would put the DNA bases 'out of sync' after a while. This is why with greater knowledge of the genomes of both species (the complete sequencing of the human genome and some partial sequencing of chimps) Britten re-did his work. This time he took account of the deletions to more accurately match the genomes. That he 'refuted' his own work shows to me at least that there was good reason for him using this way of comparison as more accurate. (as to the article by John Pickerel whom I showed to be an evo hack with no credibility in post# 37 the less said the better).

As we have seen, interbreeding often is limited to the members of local populations. If the population is small, Hardy-Weinberg may be violated.

I am well aware of such statements being made by numerous evolutionists. I reject them because they contain numerous half truths. The first half truth (and a half truth is really a complete lie that because it contains and element of truth makes it more believable and thus a better sounding lie) is the implication that while Hardy-Weinberg can be violated in a small population, this makes it likely that a neutral mutation will take over the whole species from that blast off point is false.

Let's continue with the example of the population of a million in the species and let's say that the 'tribe' of 100 gets a neutral mutation and it spreads through it. Well, if the 'tribe' gets mixed into the general population (somehow, sometime, somewhere) then Hardy-Weinberg will be in effect again and those carrying the neutral mutation will be only 1/10,000 of the species and will remain so BECAUSE THIS MUTATION IS NEUTRAL. So again this neutral mutation will not take over the population or even become a significant part of the overall genome pool of the species. So this argument is bunk.

There is an even bigger problem though with these mutations becoming through a small inbred group a part of the genome pool of the whole species. It is a scientific fact that harmful mutations far exceed all other mutations. It is a scientific fact that inbreeding is harmful for the tightly inbred group. What this means is that the inbred group will become much less viable due to the inbreeding and that any neutral mutations within it will (if the group does not die off due to the harmful mutations) will dissappear when (or if) it joins the larger group and those harmful mutations show that the inbred group is less viable and less 'fit' than the main group.

What all the above amounts to is that you do need pretty close to 150,000,000 favorable mutations between man and chimp in just some 10,000,000 years of divergence (according to evolutionists). Problem is that we have not been able to find, in decades of experimentation a single such mutation creating the greater complexity needed to account for the differences between man and chimp.

58 posted on 02/09/2003 4:56:13 PM PST by gore3000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies ]


To: gore3000
Thanks for the reply. (I'm busy too...)

No. Let's look at how the original one was done:

I thought my explanation in #41 was quite clear, and I can't make it any clearer: Britten's original study, by its nature, would never be able to detect sequence differences due to insertion or deletion mutations. The new technique can, and found an extra 3.9% difference in the sequences. But since a single insertion or deletion mutation can affect hundreds or thousands of base pairs with a single mutation, the extra sequence differences add a miniscule amount to the number of mutations necessary to account for them.

Which is why there are 42 million mutations separating us from the chimps, which caused 150 million base-pair differences.

As we have seen, interbreeding often is limited to the members of local populations. If the population is small, Hardy-Weinberg may be violated.

I am well aware of such statements being made by numerous evolutionists. I reject them because they contain numerous half truths. The first half truth (and a half truth is really a complete lie that because it contains and element of truth makes it more believable and thus a better sounding lie) is the implication that while Hardy-Weinberg can be violated in a small population, this makes it likely that a neutral mutation will take over the whole species from that blast off point is false.

You know, I'll bet that Hardy-Weinberg were two evolutionists! In fact, I'll bet they knew quite well that their equations were only valid for large populations.

Let's continue with the example of the population of a million in the species and let's say that the 'tribe' of 100 gets a neutral mutation and it spreads through it. Well, if the 'tribe' gets mixed into the general population (somehow, sometime, somewhere) then Hardy-Weinberg will be in effect again and those carrying the neutral mutation will be only 1/10,000 of the species and will remain so BECAUSE THIS MUTATION IS NEUTRAL. So again this neutral mutation will not take over the population or even become a significant part of the overall genome pool of the species. So this argument is bunk.

No, you're assuming the population of 1 million consists of 1 semi-isolated tribe of 100 and another mass of 999,900. I'm talking about a species that tends to live in tribes in the first place. So we're talking about a species of 1 million individuals who are split up into 10,000 tribes of 100 each. Every time the mutation gets introduced into a new tribe, it has just as good a chance of fixating within that tribe as it did in the first tribe.

There is an even bigger problem though with these mutations becoming through a small inbred group a part of the genome pool of the whole species. It is a scientific fact that harmful mutations far exceed all other mutations. It is a scientific fact that inbreeding is harmful for the tightly inbred group. What this means is that the inbred group will become much less viable due to the inbreeding and that any neutral mutations within it will (if the group does not die off due to the harmful mutations) will dissappear when (or if) it joins the larger group and those harmful mutations show that the inbred group is less viable and less 'fit' than the main group.

No, the scientific fact is that most mutations are neutral. You're thinking of the mutations that have some effect on the organism - they are mostly harmful. But virtually all of the harmful mutations aren't counted among the 42 million mutations that separate us from chimps anyway, since the proto-chimps & proto-humans who carried those mutations quickly died out. I think we can safely assume all those 42 million mutations were either neutral or beneficial. (Almost all of them neutral.)

As for inbreeding, you're now forcing yourself to argue that any species that habitually lives in tribes will die out! That's just absurd.

61 posted on 02/11/2003 12:46:56 AM PST by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson