Historical Jesus - Please help [VANITY]

Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell were two atheists who set on a journey to prove to the world that Jesus was not God, and that God did not exist. They did not know each other and did not collaborate. What they discovered caused them to become apologists for the Christian faith. They have both written several books. Go to Amazon and find several selections, or go to www.equip.com and you will see a lot of their books featured there.

Arguing that a historical Christ never existed is ignorant. There is significant documentary evidence of the personage of Christ.

Really? Could you cite some "documentary evidence?"

Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowel is a very comprehensive book on this subject. Its a more technical read but it probably would do the best job at showing how much evidence there is to support the truth of the Bible.

I was just going to write what appypappy correctly stated. Christ is a relationship.

People seem to “fall” away from the faith but truth is, some never had faith to begin with. Just comfort and console her. If her faith is genuine then our Lord Jesus will see her home. You will never be able to convince her or “get it right”-that is the work of the Spirit of God.

Their is a place for apologetics. If someone has a genuine doubt it is good to show them that their is evidence to support their faith. The Gospels, for example, refered to prophecy to show that Jesus was in fact the Messiah.

Josephus, Tacitus, there are others... The problem with most people today is that they are ignorant of the classics. This has nothing to do with religion.

Pretty soon there will be arguments about whether Lincoln "existed."

Here's one:

ex-athiest.com

Actually, rivercat, I don’t believe you exist. Can you prove it? I can’t see you and I have no testimony from any unbiased source that you do in fact exist now or ever have.

You might point to your registration here on FR but that might be a hoax to get others to sign up or maybe point to your post but anyone could’ve used your name, so how can you prove to me you really exist?

Will you have people that know you send letters? Or a picture?
Again, could be anybody, Birth certificate? No, picture on it and those who signed it? Where are they?

Josephus, Tacitus, there are others...

What others? Let's be serious, if you are going to spout history, why don't you present actual quotes?

Let me help you with this: Tacitus mentions Christians in Rome and "Their founder, one Christus," who "had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius." (Gaius Tacitus, Annals, 116 AD), 83 years after Christ's cruficixtion date.

That's no evidence of anything. He was simply repeating what the Christians in Rome, in 116 AD believed.

Josephus mentions Christ only in passing, and there are no less than four different versions of it. The most "christinaized" one is surely a latter-day forgery.

Josephus, like Tacitus, did not report first hand, but what others were telling them. That could have been truth or myth.

If Jesus was really such a threat to the Roman Empire as some are saying, and he was tried by the top authority in Judea, some official mention would have been made about it.

BTW, dropping names without content is not very convicting.

Actually, rivercat, I don’t believe you exist. Can you prove it? I can’t see you and I have no testimony from any unbiased source that you do in fact exist now or ever have

What in your opinion constitutes proof? Anything anyone believes? Get real.

rivercat, what you view as falling to the dark side, others would applaud as dawning enlightenment. You are kind to try to help your friend, but this will ultimately be her issue to work out. After intensive study, I found I could no longer believe in the Bible or the Jesus in its pages. Whether he existed or not is never going to be settled by a debate in any forum.

In my opinion, personal faith is a private matter of conscience between the individual and the creator. Upon my death, if I have erred in good conscience, I rely on grace.

“What in your opinion constitutes proof? Anything anyone believes? Get real.”

Exactly! No matter what proof rivercat offers I can dismiss it as...as fraud or fake or blah in a stubborn obtuseness.
No amount of evidence is “proof” to the atheist unless it doesn't exist is the same sort of argument.

We have the written testimony of contemporaries, honest literate men. We have Jesus teachings, those teachings were spoken by someone, they didn't pop out of the air. We have the congregation, the church he started. Someone did that, and the names and titles of the rulers at the time were recorded correctly.

The lack of physical evidence of Jesus life isn't surprising. His ministry was brief, his followers did not make physical representations of him, he wasn't a government official or a military figure.

But that's not enough says the atheist. “You meet MY demands, then I'll believe.”

“Get real”. O.K., If I were making the same illogical arguments against Jesus existence as I did of rivercat;s existence, do you think anyone could convince me?

Which is why I would ask the the atheist or the “Jesus is myth” crowd for their evidence beyond opinion just as you asked in your reply instead of trying to prove rivercat really exists.

Cheers.

rivercat, if look at post# 52 you’ll understand my first reply.

Let's get one thing straight: if you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not on the one who doubts your claim. So far, no one has provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that Jesus was who Christians say he was. That's why we call is a belief.

We have the written testimony of contemporaries

What contemporaries? Josephus? He was born after Jesus' death. His account, some 30 years after Jesus' crucifixion is worthless hearsay. Tacitus? His "evidence" is that Christians believed [duh] their founder was "one Christus" 116 years after Christ. He is testifying what the 2nd century Christians believed, he is not testifying that Christ really existed. LOL!

honest literate men

Who? Illiterate Jewish fishermen writing in perfect Greek? All their works are anonymous (unsigned). We pieces of copies of copies of copies of supposed originals. The oldest complete Bible is 3 centuries after Christ.

We have Jesus teachings

Yes we do. We have the Koran. Does that mean God dictated it to Mohammed? The Muslims seem to believe so. Does that prove it? Of course not. That's why we call it belief!
The writings we have are by people who had an agenda. Jewish sources later on call Christ a myth. Does that mean he was a myth? No, because they also had an agenda, and their belief doesn't constitute proof either.
There is no doubt they all believed something about Jesus, but one's belief is not a proof. Is it unfair to ask for proof? I think it is, but so is the claim that just because someone believes something it must be true.

The lack of physical evidence of Jesus life isn't surprising. His ministry was brief, his followers did not make physical representations of him, he wasn't a government official or a military figure.

The lack of physical evidence is most assuredly surprising. We are told that Jesus was perceived as a great threat to the Roman authority. Moreover, he was tried by none other than the top Roman official in the Province of Judea. Such events never go without a record.
Lack of any mention of such an "enemy of the state" is unthinkable. Hardly any act of a Governor, especially if it has to do with national security, would be a matter of record or of subsequent mention.
By claiming he is the (Jewish) Messiah, he would be considered a warrior king. Someone claiming such a title and commanding large masses of people (allegedly sufficiently large to threaten a huge Empire's hold on Israel) would most certainly be recorded by Roman and Jewish sources independently.
Roman records dealing with Christians (such as those of Pliny the Younger) indicate they considered Christians a weird Jewish sect, who were in trouble with the law because of their perceived "cannibalistic" practice (eating the flesh of their Lord), and not being any political threat to Rome.

Someone did that, and the names and titles of the rulers at the time were recorded correctly.

Just because there is Troy doesn't prove there was a Trojan war as described in Homer's Iliad. besides, there numbers and names are not always in agreement in the Bible. Luke says Christ was born during the lifetime of King Herod. The king died in 4 BC, four years before Jesus was born. Other sources say he was born during the census. The first recorded census ordered in Judea was in 6 AD. There are places mentioned in the NT that don't exist "beyond the Jordan." One can write a novel using real names and places; it's still a novel.

But that's not enough says the atheist. “You meet MY demands, then I'll believe.”

No, any reasonable person, confronted with an extraordinary claim has the right to expect an extraordinary proof of that claim. When it comes to Christ, that extraordinary proof is not there. That's why we call it a belief!

Which is why I would ask the the atheist or the “Jesus is myth” crowd for their evidence beyond opinion just as you asked in your reply instead of trying to prove rivercat really exists

We know there is a poster by the screen name "rivercat." We know that poster posts in repose to other posts. We know that poster posts in a human language called English. You say there is no such poster? Do you have a better proposal?

“Let's get one thing straight: if you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not on the one who doubts your claim. So far, no one has provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that Jesus was who Christians say he was. That's why we call is a belief.”

And the same rule holds then for those who claim Jesus didn't exist. As I pointed out earlier a person can always claim doubt, as I suppose you will, whether reasonable or not. But my interest is not in convincing you but rather to point out convincing evidence.

Contemporaries? The Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
Josephus? Historian usually write about events before their own birth like historians write Washington. But you don't say why Josephus is “worthless hearsay”.
Tacitus? Here is what he said as translated. We'll leave to the reader to decide whether he was only stating what someone else believed or stated it as fact,

” Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea,..........”

You say illiterate fishermen. Not so. They quoted frequently from the Hebrew Law and Prophets which supposes literacy. At Acts 15:22,23,30,31 demonstrates literacy was was common. But you'll have explain what “perfect” Greek is.

By about 170 c.e. the Gospels were attributed to Matt. etc. in the Muratorian Fragment. In John's writing of Revelation he names himself as writer. One cannot have copies unless there is something original to copy. A copy of John's gospel existed and circulated about 125 c.e. only shortly after John's death showing it was written during the first century and widely accepted as written by John.
We have a fragment of that manuscript, the Rylands Papyrus 457.

“The lack of physical evidence is most assuredly surprising. We are told that Jesus was perceived as a great threat to the Roman authority. Moreover, he was tried by none other than the top Roman official in the Province of Judea. Such events never go without a record.

Lack of any mention of such an “enemy of the state” is unthinkable. Hardly any act of a Governor, especially if it has to do with national security, would be a matter of record or of subsequent mention.”

Jesus was perceived as a threat by WHOM? According to Luke 23:14,15, both Pilate and Herod wanted to free Jesus so they didn't see him as a threat. But he was a threat in certain eyes. Accordingly John 11:48 says the chief priests and Pharisees feared the Romans would come and take away their place and nation.

Lack of any mention of enemy of the state unthinkable? Never without a record? Says who? We don't know for certain how much freedom of rule Herod had but his lavish building projects would suggest he had a great deal of discretion in ruling, even rebuilding the Temple.

“By claiming he is the (Jewish) Messiah, he would be considered a warrior king. Someone claiming such a title and commanding large masses of people (allegedly sufficiently large to threaten a huge Empire's hold on Israel) would most certainly be recorded by Roman and Jewish sources independently.”

Considered a warrior-king by WHOM? That view likely was held, hoped by many Jews, even some of Jesus disciples but Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world and those who take up the sword would perish by the sword ((Matt. 26:52. John 18:36) so it was not a teaching of Jesus concerning the messiah. Jesus had followers, he didn't lead a rebellion. Whether an execution of the leader of “a weird Jewish sect” would merit recording would depend upon the recorders but you can't say “most certainly”.

“Luke says Christ was born during the lifetime of King Herod. The king died in 4 BC, four years before Jesus was born. Other sources say he was born during the census. The first recorded census ordered in Judea was in 6 AD. There are places mentioned in the NT that don't exist “beyond the Jordan.”

King died 4 b.c., born during census, first recorded census 6 A.D. Any sources for these statements? What places beyond the Jordan don't exist?

“We know there is a poster by the screen name “rivercat.” We know that poster posts in repose to other posts. We know that poster posts in a human language called English. You say there is no such poster? Do you have a better proposal?”

Do you know that or is just your “belief”

And the same rule holds then for those who claim Jesus didn't exist. As I pointed out earlier a person can always claim doubt, as I suppose you will, whether reasonable or not. But my interest is not in convincing you but rather to point out convincing evidence.

No it doesn't. They didn't invent Jesus. Those who did have to prove he did exist. It's not reciprocal. Doubt in unsustantiated claims is justified.

“The king died in 4 BC, four years before Jesus was born. Other sources say he was born during the census. The first recorded census ordered in Judea was in 6 AD. There are places mentioned in the NT that don’t exist “beyond the Jordan.”

Anything to back your statements? Proof please.

Contemporaries? The Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Mark and Luke were not witnesses. They wrote down what others told them. Matthew and John and like night and day. Besides, they all had an agenda. You can't take the writings of like-minded rabbis to prove that Jesus didn't exist any more than of like-minded Christians that he did based on nothing but their personal testimony. Conflict of interest.

Josephus? Historian usually write about events before their own birth like historians write Washington. But you don't say why Josephus is “worthless hearsay”.

Josephus is for all accounts and purposes a worthless hearsay across the board because he has very little documentation to show in his support. He describes the live of king Herod in great detail but based on what if not hearsay? That is particularly true of his short account of Jesus, something people talked abut but very few if any knew first hand, in other words a legend.

Tacitus? Here is what he said as translated. We'll leav to the reader to decide whether he was only stating what someone else believed or stated it as fact ”Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea,..........”

Pilate was a prefect, only since 44 AD are they referred to as procurators. Josephus makes the same mistake, This is not a good sign of a well documented historical document. Tacitus says all sots of hearsay things about the Christians and states correctly that the founder of the name is one Christus, who was put to death by Pilate. Where is he getting this from if not from the Christians? There are no Roman or other records to that effect. He knew that Christians were followers of Christus and that the movement was a horrendous superstition in Roman eyes. He makes no attempt to vindicate their claims, but simply reports what is being said.

You say illiterate fishermen. Not so. They quoted frequently from the Hebrew Law and Prophets which supposes literacy. At Acts 15:22,23,30,31 demonstrates literacy was was common. But you'll have explain what “perfect” Greek is.

They do no such thing. They quote in over 93% of the cases form the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek language 2nd century BC Alexandrian copy of the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), and not from the Hebrew scriptures.
Prefect Greek is found in John. Grammatically, stylistically and theologically. The worst Greek is Mark's. The only Greek fishermen form Galilee came in contact with was the market place Greek in Tyre and Sidon, and was about at literate as your daily supermarket English. Hardly suitable for serious prose, let alone theological discourses, or grammatical purity.

By about 170 c.e. the Gospels were attributed to Matt. etc. in the Muratorian Fragment. In John's writing of Revelation he names himself as writer. One cannot have copies unless there is something original to copy. A copy of John's gospel existed and circulated about 125 c.e. only shortly after John's death showing it was written during the first century and widely accepted as written by John.
We have a fragment of that manuscript, the Rylands Papyrus 457.

Well, sure, by the end of the second century AD, the Gospels started to be associated with specific apostolic authors, but they all remain anonymous. Paul's Epistles, at least his first seven are pretty much authenticated, but John in the book of revelation was resolutely rejected as scripture for more than 300 years and the it was accepted on condition that Hebrews be accepted as well.
The Papyrus 457 (also P52) you mention is a worthless shred from which it is impossible to deduct who wrote it, or pretty much anything else for that matter.

Papyrus 457 (aka P52)

Jesus was perceived as a threat by WHOM?

Well, King Herod the Great for one. It was he, who after all, ordered the "slaughter of the innocents" in order to kill baby Jesus. No record of any such slaughter exists, not even from Josephus who describes Herod's life in greatest detail. Rome, for a man preaching that Caesar is not a god. This is like someone with a large following preaching that communism is great for America. That would get everyone's attention. For claiming to be the Jewish messiah, a warrior king, who will defeat Israel's enemies *in this case Romans), and for potentially inciting revolt.

Pilate and Herod wanted to free Jesus so they didn't see him as a threat

Says who? The Apostles? None of them was there to witness any of that. It's hearsay.

Considered a warrior-king by WHOM? That view likely was held, hoped by many Jews, even some of Jesus disciples but Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world and those who take up the sword would perish by the sword ((Matt. 26:52. John 18:36) so it was not a teaching of Jesus concerning the messiah

Judaism. That's so basic it's considered Judaism 101. Look up meshiyah. By saying he was the son of God (the anointed one), he claimed to be the meshiyah, the warrior king in accord with Judaic beliefs. Trouble is, he qualified only in one of seven requirements, which is why the Jews rejected him.

Any sources for these statements?

Sure, read some history not the Bible.

What places beyond the Jordan don't exist?

Sure they exist. Where was Jesus Baptized? Matthew 3:4-6 and Mark 1:9 say River Jordan. John 1:28 says "Bethabara beyond Jordan" a place that doesn't exist.

Do you know that or is just your “belief”

No, not a belief. Someone or something posts by that screen name.

Anything to back your statements? Proof please.

Good try. You are more than welcome to do your own reasearch. There are numerous sources, form Jospehus toi hsitorical books oither than his. You cna find references in Encylopedias and original source sites. I am not your librarian. Mine is to direct you to the correct source. I will not do your homework. But if you wish to disbelieve those dates you are doing so on your own and not from lack of resources.

“Mark and Luke were not witnesses. They wrote down what others told them. Matthew and John and like night and day. Besides, they all had an agenda. You can't take the writings of like-minded rabbis to prove that Jesus didn't exist any more than of like-minded Christians that he did based on nothing but their personal testimony. Conflict of interest.”

More opinion offered up as fact. Contemporary and witness to CAN be the same thing but not necessarily so.

“Josephus is for all accounts and purposes a worthless hearsay across the board because he has very little documentation to show in his support. He describes the live of king Herod in great detail but based on what if not hearsay? That is particularly true of his short account of Jesus, something people talked abut but very few if any knew first hand, in other words a legend.”

If he has very little documentation it's still more than you've presented for you opinions.

“Pilate was a prefect, only since 44 AD are they referred to as procurators. Josephus makes the same mistake, This is not a good sign of a well documented historical document. Tacitus says all sots of hearsay things about the Christians and states correctly that the founder of the name is one Christus, who was put to death by Pilate. Where is he getting this from if not from the Christians? There are no Roman or other records to that effect. He knew that Christians were followers of Christus and that the movement was a horrendous superstition in Roman eyes. He makes no attempt to vindicate their claims, but simply reports what is being said.”

Understandably he didn't try to VINDICATE (clear of blame or accusation) their claims. Maybe “validate”?

“They do no such thing. They quote in over 93% of the cases form the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek language 2nd century BC Alexandrian copy of the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), and not from the Hebrew scriptures.”

Uhh... the Jewish Bible IS the Hebrew Scriptures. Hebrew, Jewish. I didn't say written in Hebrew.

“Prefect Greek is found in John. Grammatically, stylistically and theologically. The worst Greek is Mark's. The only Greek fishermen form Galilee came in contact with was the market place Greek in Tyre and Sidon, and was about at literate as your daily supermarket English. Hardly suitable for serious prose, let alone theological discourses, or grammatical purity.”

If someone quotes from the LXX Greek then they could read Greek. There are different styles of Greek but none is perfect because there is no way to define and measure perfection in a language only suitability.

“The Papyrus 457 (also P52) you mention is a worthless shred from which it is impossible to deduct who wrote it, or pretty much anything else for that matter.”

Worthless to you perhaps and beyond deduction to you perhaps but to scholars who don't regurgitate Wikipedia
it quite valuable and had you looked a bit deeper you would have found their work. How did you manage to miss that?
This is what you should have included with the photo:

Recto is one side and Verso is the other. The fragment is part of this Greek text with English below.

Greek Text (P52)
Recto (John 18:31-33)
EIPEN OUN AUTOIS O PILATOS LABETE AUTON UMEIS KAI KATA TON NOMON UMWN KRINATE AUTON EIPON AUTW OI IOUDAIOI HMIN OUK EXESTIN APOKTEINAI OUDENA INA O LOGOS TOU IHSOU PLHRWQH ON EIPEN SHMAINWN POIW QANATW HMELLEN APOQNHSKEIN EISHLQEN OUN PALIN EIS TO PRAITWRION O PILATOS KAI EFWNHSEN TON IHSOUN KAI EIPEN AUTW SU EI O BASILEUS TWN IOYDAIWN

Verso (John 18:37-38)
EIPEN OUN AUTW O PILATOS BASILEUS EI SU APEKRIQH O IHSOUS SU LEGEIS OTI BASILEUS EIMI EGW EIS TOUTO GEGENNHMAI KAI EIS TOUTO ELHLUQA EIS TON KOSMON INA MARTURHSW TH ALHQEIA PAS O WN EK THS ALHQEIAS AKOUEI MOU THS FWNHS LEGEI AUTW O PILATOS TI ESTIN ALHQEIA KAI TOUTO EIPWN PALIN EXHLQEN PROS TOUSIOUDAIOUS KAI LEGEI AUTOIS EPW OUDENIAN EURISKW EN AUTW AITIAN

Translation of Greek Text (P52)

Recto (John 18:31-33)
31 Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” The Jews said to him, “It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.” 32 This was to fulfil the word which Jesus had spoken to show by what death he was to die. 33 Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”
Verso (John 18:37-38)
37 Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” After he had said this, he went out to the Jews again, and told them, “I find no crime in him.”

Worthless? Not worthy of further comment.

“Well, King Herod the Great for one. It was he, who after all, ordered the “slaughter of the innocents” in order to kill baby Jesus. No record of any such slaughter exists, not even from Josephus who describes Herod's life in greatest detail. Rome, for a man preaching that Caesar is not a god. This is like someone with a large following preaching that communism is great for America. That would get everyone’s attention. For claiming to be the Jewish messiah, a warrior king, who will defeat Israel's enemies *in this case Romans), and for potentially inciting revolt.”

And

“Judaism. That's so basic it's considered Judaism 101. Look up meshiyah. By saying he was the son of God (the anointed one), he claimed to be the meshiyah, the warrior king in accord with Judaic beliefs. Trouble is, he qualified only in one of seven requirements, which is why the Jews rejected him.”

What makes these comments anything more than undocumented hearsay?

“Where was Jesus Baptized? Matthew 3:4-6 and Mark 1:9 say River Jordan. John 1:28 says “Bethabara beyond Jordan” a place that doesn't exist.”

Wrong..again. John 1:28 says, “These things took place in Bethany (the more common name) across the Jordan, where John was baptizing”.

Not a word about Jesus being baptized there. And that Bethany that doesn't exist? Better tell UNESOCO because this came from their World Heritage Page,

“...The site of Bethany, as mentioned in the book of John, is also known by other names. It is called Beth-Abara or Bethabara (Beit el-’Obour in Arabic) meaning ‘house of the crossing’, referring to the Joshua and Elijah crossings of the river, and Arabic Bible translations call it Beit ‘Anya. Some Greek Bible texts call it Bethania. and in the Old Testament the same area is also referred to as Beth-Barah in Judges 7:24-25, the place where Gideon defeated the Midianites and sled two of their leaders or princes. These same fords across the Jordan are thought to be the place referred to in Judges 12:4-6, where Jephthah the Gileadite seized these fords during his battle against the Ephraimites (Gilead is the area roughly between the Amman region and the Yarmouk River, in the north of what is today Jordan).

The Bethany area was known as Bethennabris in the Roman period. The 6th Century AD Byzantine Madaba mosaic map of the Holy Land labels it as ‘Ainon where now is Saphsaphas’. The name Saphsaphas (’the place of willows’) (also, Saphsas or Sapsas), comes from the Arabic word for willow tree. The Madaba map depicts a ferry crossing Just north of the Bethany area (one of two such ferries on the map), corresponding to the location of the current King Hussein Bridge (also known as the Allenby Bridge). Bethany/Bethabara may also have referred to a region, rather than only a specific settlement. Western travelers to the region at the turn of the century reported that the Greek Orthodox clerics and monks who lived in the south Jordan Valley, and the native ghoranis themselves, referred to the whole area around the river and east to the start of Wadi Kharrar as Bethabara, It seems that the original settlement in the 1st and 2nd Centuries AD was known as Bethany. but in the 3rd Century AD it was more commonly known as Bethabara, and by the 6th Century AD it had become known as Aenon and Saphsapha (or Sapsas, Sapsafas).

John the Baptist's town

The main complex being investigated comprises structures on and around a small natural hill located two kilometres east of the Jordan River, adjacent to the spring and small oasis at the head of the Wadi Kharrar. The hill has long been known as Elijah's Hill. or Jabal Mar Elias or Tell Mar Elias in Arabic. The current excavations have identified a settlement that was inhabited from the time of Christ and John the Baptist (early Roman era), throughout most of the Byzantine period, into the early Islamic era, and again in Ottoman centuries. The site was also visited by scholars earlier this century; the late director of antiquities Lankester Harding identified Byzantine remains on the surface, and the survey team of James Saner, Kheir Yassine and Moliawiyah lbrahim in the 1980s collected pottery there dating from the early Roman through the late Byzantine periods. A visit to the area by Father Michcle Piccirillo of the Franciscan Archaeological Institute also confirmed the presence of much early Roman pottery on the plateau immediately south of Bethany, pointing to the existence of a Roman era village at the time of Christ.

The later settlement from the Byzantine era continued to use these pools, and also comprised new structures such as churches and other buildings with plain white and colored mosaic floors, some with crosses in the mosaics .The early Roman era cisterns were modified during the Byzantine period, with internal walls added and the steps removed in places. Several 5th-6th Century AD Byzantine churches have been excavated, one with an inscription mentioning ROTORIUS as the “head of the monastery”, though this person is not known from any other ancient sources.”

I haven't tried Google Earth so all that might be hearsay.

“Sure, read some history not the Bible.”

Tacitus and Josephus AND the Bible. History and more.

“No, not a belief. Someone or something posts by that screen name.”

Sounds like an undocumented, interest conflicted, agenda hearsay myth to me. Good night.