Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Subordinate is not thee right word or idea. Instead of leaving us a book and knowing human weakness, God left us a book and a teaching Church to help us understand the book.
It's not a questino of one being subordinate to the other. They both co-exist.
SD
That's a joke, right?
I agree. Teaching is a gift of the Spirit. However, in my consistently humble opinion, the teaching church would be the "invisible" church.
So you're only sure that you have the Truth, and that others don't. But you don't know why the others dont' have the truth.
How do you know you aren't the one with the pride or the immaturity? Are you saying that the person truly seeking will get the truth here in this life, or eventually?
But Dave a person who does not believe that the HS will lead him to the infallible truth but is trusting that another person is being led and taking his word at face value is not giveing the HS priority in his own life. Is not trusting in God's Word.
It's always either/or with you. I don't disbelieve in the HS. I believe that He will lead me to the Truth.
I just happen to believe that He uses the Church to do this. Cause the Church doesnt' waver and change.
I am led to the Truth. Alleluia. This is trusting in God, and it is understanding the Incarnation at the same time.
God comes down and works through humanity to bring about Redemption. There's a model there for God using humanity to do His work.
SD
Right. So a new believer would have absolutely no idea of who to listen to.
SD
And you can't see where trusting in experience and other forms of learning can lead to everyone haveing different conceptions of what the Truth is. The Truth has to be something that is totally unchanging all the time to be able to trust it. What God says was true back then has to be true today. The standard can't change, and he would have to make it understandable to all. You just have to want to understand it and put your own effort into it to show this desire. Sitting in a pew week after week listening will not grow you the way God wants us too.
I notice you do not address my take on the amount of actual bible reading done on your own, am I right, or do I need to apologize for that? Have/do you read the bible thru on your own? Or is your actual bible reading only what you get in church at Mass? How often do you go to Mass?
Becky
And you can't see where trusting in experience and other forms of learning can lead to everyone haveing different conceptions of what the Truth is.
Sure. If people don't have an authority. Which is what I was talking about. Truth is not just inside the pages of the Bible. The Truth is out there.
SD
If they believe they would have the promise of the Spirit to guide them. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth
Its a lifelong process.
What causes the disagreements among NCs? On doctrine, where there are real difference, not on trivial things ?I think its because we do have the HS to guide us, but we retain our humanity. We can not understand, or do not want to understand things because of our personality or pride or many other reasons.
I believe that we have discussed this before. I agree with your second statement in essense.
I believe that (spiritual) immaturity, pride, biases, etc. can all hinder our understanding of what the Spirit strives to teach us.
But, would not such hindrances also be in effect if, indeed, we had an infallible human teacher ?
We believe what we want to believe ... the Pharisees demonstrate that to us.
Show us any evidence ... and we can find an excuse not to believe it.
The answer, I believe, is to continue on in faith with God. Such a walk will, ultimately, grow us up into the image of Him.
As we grow, we will understand more and more of what God desires to teach us.
Our biases, our pride, and other such hindrances will gradually fall away and we will be, as a result, ever more attuned to receive the truth of God.
But to move down this path, we must ultimately desire God's truth more than anything else in life.
The kicker is ... as we grow in our understanding of God's truth, ... we grow closer together in the unity of belief, as well.
May God grant such blessings to us.
No, but this is.
Yo'momma so fat the highway patrol made her wear Caution! Wide Turn.
BigMack
But, would not such hindrances also be in effect if, indeed, we had an infallible human teacher ?
No, that's what the definition of infalliblity entails. It does not cover every thought, word or action, but when the "infallible human leader" speaks for and to the entire Church on a matter of faith or morals, then he can not be wrong. He can not fail. To express the Truth.
We can certainly fail to understand what he is saying, or deny it. Witness Gov. Davis in California and his bishop. The bishop says "you can't be Cahtolic and support abortion."
Davis says "Who are you to tell me?"
He won't listen to the Church. That doesn't mean the church is wrong.
The kicker is ... as we grow in our understanding of God's truth, ... we grow closer together in the unity of belief, as well. May God grant such blessings to us.
Exactly. Amen.
SD
Oh well, let's just pretend I didn't see it. I don't have the energy.
SD
Correct, but faith is taking God at his word and acting upon it. He says He will give each and every believer the HS to guide them. TO GUIDE THEM, not just dump what he wants them to know in the head. You have to study, search, knock, trust in the HS. The bible says no where tolet a church spoon feed you the word.
Becky
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