Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Only by liberals and those who wish to deny the Trinity.
What, exactly, is your definition of "prayer"? It seems you and yours are using something other than that found in the dictionary and in usage. Maybe that's the problem.
KJV onlyists would not agree with me, but that is no surprise. Your argument presupposes a KJV is the inspired translation position, which most Protestants (wisely) do not endorse.
No, not at all. My argument is that the word in the English language "pray" has more meaning than to engage in worship of a diety through supplication or words or what have you.
I have shown from the dictionary that this is true of the English language in general. The word "pray" can mean to ask for assistance from someone who is not god, and whom one is not worshipping.
I have also shown from the English language's crown jewel, the KJV, the use of the English word in this manner. Maybe it is not a frequent use today, maybe it is archaic. But at some point in the language, "pray" had this meaning.
So where is the difficulty? What definition are you using, and must we abide by your definition in order to have an intelligent conversation?
SD
What do you think the word "pray" means? Let's start there.
SD
In the language used in the day the KJV was translated "pray" meant "ask". "Pray" was not used to denote supplications made exclusively to God.
So that is not a fair charge to make against KJV onlyists.
LOL! Alright, I figured you were more up on the Manifest Sons of God.
OK, now. Close the circle. I know you can do it.
When Catholics "ask" their saints for their prayers, we can call this "praying" to the saints. Using this "old" meaning of the word.
And, as you so eloquently put it "'Pray' was not used to denote supplications made exclusively to God."
So Catholic "prayer" to saints is not worship.
QED.
SD
Nope. Not even close. I cite the verse to demonstrate the use of the word "pray" in the English language. That's it.
The word does not necessarily denote that one is beseeching a diety, nor that one is engaged in "worship."
Pray, or prayer, can simply mean to ask, beg, beseech, etc. without regard to the diety of the one being beseeched.
SD
Yup read it. Just more rabid attacks and false charges by those who are insecure in their beliefs. Kinda like this thread today.
Well, we don't see it that way. Excuse us if we use the word in valid, alternative ways. Any confusion arises from a lack of access to the dictionary.
SD
Then we have no quarrel. It was Johnny who said that any "prayer" to anyone dead or alive is "worship."
Maybe if he sees we are using different definitions, we can wrap up early and continue our battle against the forces of evil. LOL
SD
Uh, its not only the KJV which translate denoumi to mean, "pray." This exact same Greek word is used in Luke, Chapter 22. Consider:
Lu 22:32 "But I have pray ed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
This is from the KJV. However, now consider these other two translations of this exact same word from the Revised Standard and the New Revised Standard:
Revised Standard Luke 22:32but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
New Revised Standard Luke 22:32but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
The problem is not that it is archaic to consider "pray" and "beg" to mean roughly the same thing. The problem is that Protestants over the years have come to believe that prayer, perforce, entails some form of worship due only to God. "Pray," for Protestants, has taken on the connotation of worship, adding to the denotation of the word which by itself simply means, "to ask" or "to entreat."
This, of course, is the cause of much confusion between Catholics and Protestants since Catholics use the word in its denotative sense while Protestants bring to the word the connotative sense mentioned above.
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