Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'm suggesting He set the stage for the lifting of the diestary laws. This did not come to fruition until later.
So, no, I don't think He ate pork, but I think He would now.
SD
Doug, what were the Pharisees trying to wash off their hands in the first place, that they thought was unclean?
JH :-)
law dee daw seems like old times having you to talk with, seems like old times having you to walk with, dum dum dee dee.........JH :-)
Koinos and akathartos Dave. Jesus was using koinos here, not akathartos. If it were thought for one minute that Jesus were telling people they could do what God clearly prohibted to them in their bible they would have a fit. You can eath pork chops all you want and you won't be koinos, but those pork chops are always going to be akathartos.
Are you actually keeping a list? What were the first ten signs?
SD
Isn't the whole issue being addressed the enmity between these two, the Jew and the Gentile. And that enmity being the Law. The issues of clean and unclean. And by making a new creation through Christ, he can now subject them to a new law, thereby removing that enmity and uniting them in one Spirit.
The enmity was entirely man created. They had taken unclean and perverted it so that gentiles themselves were considered unclean. This goes against the teaching of the bible:
Lev 19:34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.
"Stranger" is someone not of Israel, a gentile. there a many verses in exodus telling Israel not to vex, or cause enmity, with strangers. Yet they had gone and done it by creating their own rules.
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
The "law of commandments contained in ordiances" is the man made laws created by the jews. Ordinances is "dogma".
Yeah, they might try to have Him killed.
You seem to be missing the larger picture. Jesus didn't say "As long as it's not akathartos, nothing that goes into your mouth can defile you."
He said it plainly. It's not what goes in, it's what comes out. Period.
It's like the followers were arguing whether they had to wear green hats or red hats to merit salvation. Jesus says, "It doesn't matter if you wear a hat at all."
And you are still saying "see, I told you you couldn't wear a red hat."
Who knows? They weren't taking any chances and that was their mistake. They had built up a whole slew of man made rules and regulations and had succeeded in turning people away from God.
No, not really. The last few I've posted have been in the 840's, though. I'll just keep upping them numerically.
I don't agree with this, although certainly any ritual or practice that becomes routine and is performed mindlessly can be spiritually deadening. Judaism teaches that fulfillment of the mitzot should be done with kavanah -- mindfulness or conscious intent.
SD
Dave, reading back through this again, I think you're stretching the meaning. I think the context makes pretty clear that Jesus is referring to the hand washing issue. He wraps up the discourse by saying "These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
I haven't followed this whole discussion as closely as I probably should, but if that's what Doug has been saying, then I would have to agree with him. If you guys are off on a different tangent then that's very different ... never mind.
He wraps up the discourse by saying that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of it. I understand the context in which the point was brought up. He does not say that washing hands is optional, but other things which enter the mouth can defile us.
He answers the question in a way that is not immediately understood. He has made a much broader statement than you seem to recognize. We are not to be judged based on what we eat, but on how we act. Not what goes in, but what comes out.
He could have said something much narrower. He did not.
SD
SD
No. He says that in the middle of the discourse, not the end. You can interpret it wider if you like and we can agree or disagree on it, but let's get the facts right. The statement that you refer to is in verse 11. The discourse ends with the statement that I referred to in verse 20. He wraps up the discourse by saying "These (evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies) are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
Islam is the most popular religion in the world and is growing faster than Christianity. It must be the right one huh?
My fault. I didn't realize you were talking about the later verses. Doug quoted these as well, but I still don't see how it is supposed to defeat my argument. Let's look again:
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Yes, He concludes with a reference of the matter at hand, that being the question of hand washing. But He again states that only those things coming out of the mouth defile man. As I said before He says that no matter what we put into our mouths it results in crap.
So twice He makes this point, that it is what goes out, not what comes in that defiles us.
SD
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