Replies

My comments: "If so, that strikes me as circuitous. The Calvinist definition of sin (which in turn 'justifies' pre-selected damanation (whether or not by passed-over theory)) is based on imputation from the sin of Adam. So, in Calvinist theory, what was Adam's sin to impute to regard him as fallen and therefore justify being 'reprobated', all before he sinned?"

Your comment: Why do you keep bringing Calvin's name up? This thread is about Luther who believed in double predestination. And you keep asking questions that were answered in the paper about Luther's teachings that I posted above. Didn't you read it? If so, please re-read it and see if you can find your answer in what Luther taught.

I see. There is no answer. As to the Luther/Calvin distinction, it is a distinction without a difference -- as your own article argues. Theological determinisim has, for better or worse, come to be known as "Calvinism". But you are free to call it "Lutherism" if you wish.

The point is, when confronted with Adam, the construct makers had a big problem. They couldn't say Adam had a free will without trying (unsuccessfully) to explain why God would give one man a free will and not all. But they couldn't say he was predestined for sin without God being the author of sin and evil -- and, of course, punishing him for the imputed sin he hadn't yet committed.

So, the answer: As usual when the construct makers aren't sure, punt it. Just as you did. Congratulations. You now qualify for your master's degree in Calvinist deception.

Well...first of all, let me say that I believe Matchett-PI was in error when he said that Adam's will was the same as Judas' or the Romans'. Judas and the Romans, as well as any human descendent of Adam (save Jesus), was imputed with the sin of Adam and was a sinner. As you pointed out, it would be impossible and unjust to impute to Adam a sin before he had committed it. Of course, God knew before creating Adam that he would indeed fall into sin and take his descendents with him. As such, he viewed us in our sinful state when he created us. He did not create us AS sinners, but as those who he knew would BE sinners because of Adam's federal choice.

Election took place before time began. Election is not necessary outside of the context of fallen man since the elect are being elected to salvation, and of course salvation requires something to be saved from. There is an absolute need of man for salvation from the moment of birth since he is under the imputation of Adam's sin.

To summarize, God knew before creating Adam that, given free will, he would sin. God knew the implications of this from that point on for any descendent of Adam. God chose to create him anyway, knowing that he would sin, and thus that any human created as a descendent of Adam would be under that penalty. Knowing that, he viewed all of us as sinners. His election is in light of that knowledge. His election of Adam's descendents prior to creating Adam does not remove the possibility of Adam having free will. Just because He knows Adam will sin doesn't mean He made him do it.

There is no need to construct a means of explaining why our will is not the same as Adam's at his creation. It's clearly explained Biblically. Our wills are enslaved to sin. We do not have free will in the same sense Adam had it prior to his fall. If we did, then it would be possible for us to not sin at all. We are inclined inevitably toward sin because that is the consequence of original sin. Adam was not predestined to sin, but God certainly knew that he would, and His election is in light of that knowledge.

But they (Calvinists) couldn't say he (Adam) was predestined to sin without God being the author of sin and evil.

Why are you so afraid to give God his due?

Of course God was the creator of sin and evil. God created all things to His purpose. But sin and evil are nothing to God except that they cause consternation for His creation.

"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above," says Katherine Hepburn to Humphrey Bogart in THE AFRICAN QUEEN.

Where do you think sin and evil came from?