Posted on 10/12/2002 1:43:32 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
The Presence of Christ at the Lord's Supper Is Christ really, truly, personally present with us in the sacrament? Do we therein covenant and commune with him in person, touch to touch, immediately and really; or is this only a show, a symbol of something absent and different from what it seems?
The gross perversions of the Romanists and Ritualists, who have made it altogether a question of the local presence of Christ's flesh and blood, have occasioned much confusion of thought and many prejudices on the subject. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, every believer knows that Christ is present in the sacrament - that he has, as a matter of fact, experienced his presence. If he is not present really and truly, then the sacrament can have no interest or real value to us. It does not do to say that this presence is only spiritual, because that phrase is ambiguous. If it means that the presence of Christ is not something objective to us, but simply a mental apprehension or idea of him subjectively present to our consciousness, then the phrase is false. Christ as an objective fact is as really present and active in the sacrament as are the bread and wine, or the minister or our fellow-communicants by our side. If it means that Christ is present only as he is represented by the Holy Ghost, it is not wholly true, because Christ is one person and the Holy Ghost another, and it is Christ who is personally present. The Holy Ghost doubtless is coactive in that presence and in all Christ's mediatorial work, but this leads into depths beyond our possible understanding. It does not do to say that the divinity of Christ is present while his humanity is absent, because it is the entire indivisible divine-human Person of Christ which is present.
When Christ promises to his disciples, "LO, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world-age," and, "Where two or three are met together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," he means, of course, that he, the Godman Mediator they loved, trusted, and obeyed, would be with them. His humanity is just as essential as his divinity, otherwise his incarnation would not have been a necessity. His sympathy, his love, his special helpful tenderness are human. He is able to be our perfect High Priest, "being touched with the feeling of our infirmities," because he "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).
But what do we mean by "presence" ? It is a great mistake to confuse the idea of "presence" with that of nearness in space. This may be a condition of presence, or it may not, but it is never "presence" itself. If you walk abroad at noonday in the tropics, the most overwhelmingly present thing to you in the universe is the intolerable sun, although it is ninety-three millions of miles distance. If another person is only one foot distant, but separated from you by a wall which cuts off sight and sound, he is as absent as if in the center of a distant star. But if the same person, a hundred feet from you in an audience-room, sees you face to face, and hears every vibration of your voice, he is as truly present as if he touched you at every point. When Whitefield's preaching was fully heard and its power felt across the Delaware River, he was present really and truly wherever was heard and his matchless eloquence felt. "Presence," therefore, is not a question of space; it is a relation. Personal presence is such a relation of persons that they are conscious of each other as immediate objects of perception and sources of influence. We know nothing as to the ultimate nature of the union our souls and bodies, yet we are no less certain of the fact. So we need not speculate how it is that Christ, the whole God-man, body, soul, and divinity, is present in the sacrament, but we are absolutely certain of the fact. He has promised it. We have hundreds of times experienced it. We can neither see his face, nor hear his voice with our bodily senses; nevertheless, when we exercise faith, he, the whole Christ, speaks to us, and we hear him; we speak to him, and he hears us; he takes all we give him, he gives us and we receive all of himself. This is real, because he is present. And this is not confined to the sacrament. He makes manifest to our faith the reality of his presence with us, and communicates the same grace to us, on many other occasions and at other times, here and now and in this breaking of bread we have a personal appointment to meet our Lord. And he never disappoints those who thus seek him with faith and love.
` A.A. Hodge
Woodkirk's behavior is bad (and inanely so, as he so amply demonstrates). But true and dastardly evil is usually far more subtle, far more enveloped in the guise of good, and far more difficult to easily discern. Some on this thread have intimated the workings of the evil one in Woodkirk's junk postings. Actually, I think Woodkirk's statements are far too banal even for the evil one.
The sins of these homosexual and pederastic priests are abominable, and it's absolutely true that a form of sexual evil has invaded our Church - one form of which frequently preys on innocent children. We should be abashed and ashamed that we have not strongly and honorably confronted this evil. However, a priest's sins do not contaminate the body of Christ, any more than Christ was contaminated here on earth, completely and totally surrounded by sinners and sin.
I believe he does know what he's doing. God's mercy will still be needed - and more so.
Catholicguy is right, RnMomof7. When you believe you understand so fully the mysteries of God and of Christ, you, in pride, are raising yourself to a level that you have not earned or been accorded. That is a truly dangerous road to traverse.
You obviously believe Catholics are in the wrong - but our belief in this instance is our best faith and truest effort to understand the truth about the Eucharist, and to carry out the commands of the Son of God. Your actions here on this thread are mighty sins of charity (for it is uncharitable to so purposefully offend and hurt those who seek the truth and the way of Christ) and pride. You are on the wrong path. Repent, little one.
Evil rears its ugly head everywhere...even in the Church...so you're not alone! Is it that misery loves company? Or are you trying to deflect the unChristian behavior you have exhibited onto someone else?
This IS My Body!
I guess they must be democrats. They don't know what IS is! ;^)
"Do you at least understand my point?"
Yes, of course I do. I'm not asking you to condemn him as a blasphemer. In bringing up his blasphemy and desecration of God, I'm not asking you to accept Catholic Eucharistic theology (even if it is true), merely to understand what it means to us, how serious an offense it is to us.
But I don't think you understand my point.
"I have stated that we should express differences in a charitable manner, but on both sides that approach is swept aside."
There is my point. Woodkirk has gone beyond malicious words. He has purposely behaved in a way that defiles what we hold holy. Even if your version of Christianity is so diluted as to not recognize even a spiritual presence in the Eucharist itself, you can certainly understand that in human terms, he has defiled what we consider holy.
I deny in every regard anything concerning Mormon theology where it distinguishes itself from Catholic teaching. I deny that any of their religious rites have any spiritual efficacy in and of themselves. Nonetheless, I would rebuke most strongly any individual on this site that confessed to defecating in a Mormon temple. I don't have to agree with their theology to hold it evil to desecrate what they hold holy. It's called human decency.
Theology aside, if you cannot rebuke him for this abominable behavior, then we can take the meaning from that.
sitetest
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I'll give you my simple understanding of this passage.
51 - Jesus says he is the bread of Life - he is giving this bread (His flesh)for them to literally eat (trogo - gnaw, masticate) for the life of the world.
52 - The Jewish listeners don't like this... it is pretty gross to eat flesh.
53, 54, 55, 56, 57 - But Jesus doesn't tell them they've misunderstood... He says the same thing over and over again.
58, 59 - This bread isn't like the regular bread that God sent from Heaven to feed your ancestors.
60 - A lot of His disciples are having a tough time with the thought of eating this bread which He says is His flesh... it's kind of hard to understand and believe.
61 - Jesus knows and hears His disciples and the Jews and their disbelief and asks if His preceeding words shock them.
62 - Then He tells them something equally hard to believe, something that transcends all we know about human law --- "What if you see Me going up to where I was before? --- literally speaking of His coming Resurrection.
63 - The only explanation he gives for his preceeding words are these: "It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." --- His words are spirit and life (1. eat the bread, it is literally My flesh, and 2., I will be ascending [going up, climbing] to where I was before) --- both things are out of the realm of human understanding --- so don't try to understand it in your "fleshy" "human" way because you can't.
Again, this is my simple understanding of the passage. I can't get around His direct words and what they say.
If you answer me, can you give me your own understanding of these same passages? I honestly don't understand other interpretations of these passages.
Unfortunately, I think all of us have.
So what's the point in all of this?
Should we even engage these anti-Catholics?
Unfortunately, any thread we post to discuss among ourselves Catholic doctrine or developments in our Church is summarily executed by the hijacking of these bigots.
How do we continue to have our own discussions, yet ignore these SOB's.
On the Eucharist, I simply cannot ignore them.
If they said the things in my presence they've said on this thread, they'd be picking up their teeth. (oh how I wish I had the opportunity last night on this thread! I'm 6' 2", 300lbs, and as a former bouncer, I know how to deal with idiots like this.)
The Irish in me cannot let this kind of challenge go by without a fight.
Unfortunately, any thread we post to discuss among ourselves Catholic doctrine or developments in our Church is summarily executed by the hijacking of these bigots. How do we continue to have our own discussions, yet ignore these SOB's
But this statment is the height of hypocrisy also! Catholics are always jumping in to "protestant" threads, they are always saying ridculing statements.
Go ahead and rebuke woodkirk, but don't act like you all are a bunch of blameless martyrs. We are ALL guilty of un-christian posts.
Becky
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