Posted on 10/12/2002 1:43:32 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
The Presence of Christ at the Lord's Supper Is Christ really, truly, personally present with us in the sacrament? Do we therein covenant and commune with him in person, touch to touch, immediately and really; or is this only a show, a symbol of something absent and different from what it seems?
The gross perversions of the Romanists and Ritualists, who have made it altogether a question of the local presence of Christ's flesh and blood, have occasioned much confusion of thought and many prejudices on the subject. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, every believer knows that Christ is present in the sacrament - that he has, as a matter of fact, experienced his presence. If he is not present really and truly, then the sacrament can have no interest or real value to us. It does not do to say that this presence is only spiritual, because that phrase is ambiguous. If it means that the presence of Christ is not something objective to us, but simply a mental apprehension or idea of him subjectively present to our consciousness, then the phrase is false. Christ as an objective fact is as really present and active in the sacrament as are the bread and wine, or the minister or our fellow-communicants by our side. If it means that Christ is present only as he is represented by the Holy Ghost, it is not wholly true, because Christ is one person and the Holy Ghost another, and it is Christ who is personally present. The Holy Ghost doubtless is coactive in that presence and in all Christ's mediatorial work, but this leads into depths beyond our possible understanding. It does not do to say that the divinity of Christ is present while his humanity is absent, because it is the entire indivisible divine-human Person of Christ which is present.
When Christ promises to his disciples, "LO, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world-age," and, "Where two or three are met together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," he means, of course, that he, the Godman Mediator they loved, trusted, and obeyed, would be with them. His humanity is just as essential as his divinity, otherwise his incarnation would not have been a necessity. His sympathy, his love, his special helpful tenderness are human. He is able to be our perfect High Priest, "being touched with the feeling of our infirmities," because he "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).
But what do we mean by "presence" ? It is a great mistake to confuse the idea of "presence" with that of nearness in space. This may be a condition of presence, or it may not, but it is never "presence" itself. If you walk abroad at noonday in the tropics, the most overwhelmingly present thing to you in the universe is the intolerable sun, although it is ninety-three millions of miles distance. If another person is only one foot distant, but separated from you by a wall which cuts off sight and sound, he is as absent as if in the center of a distant star. But if the same person, a hundred feet from you in an audience-room, sees you face to face, and hears every vibration of your voice, he is as truly present as if he touched you at every point. When Whitefield's preaching was fully heard and its power felt across the Delaware River, he was present really and truly wherever was heard and his matchless eloquence felt. "Presence," therefore, is not a question of space; it is a relation. Personal presence is such a relation of persons that they are conscious of each other as immediate objects of perception and sources of influence. We know nothing as to the ultimate nature of the union our souls and bodies, yet we are no less certain of the fact. So we need not speculate how it is that Christ, the whole God-man, body, soul, and divinity, is present in the sacrament, but we are absolutely certain of the fact. He has promised it. We have hundreds of times experienced it. We can neither see his face, nor hear his voice with our bodily senses; nevertheless, when we exercise faith, he, the whole Christ, speaks to us, and we hear him; we speak to him, and he hears us; he takes all we give him, he gives us and we receive all of himself. This is real, because he is present. And this is not confined to the sacrament. He makes manifest to our faith the reality of his presence with us, and communicates the same grace to us, on many other occasions and at other times, here and now and in this breaking of bread we have a personal appointment to meet our Lord. And he never disappoints those who thus seek him with faith and love.
` A.A. Hodge
My actions already boast in Him. And I know very well that I am saved by God's grace! And my works and faith cooperate with that grace. Imperfectly now, perfectly later! ;^)
"Wherefore if they shall say unto you . . . he [Jesus] is in the inner chambers, don't believe them".
Your magisterium has its believers convinced that Jesus is in those inner chambers on its altars. Jesus said: "don't believe them". So why do you believe [have faith in] those who Jesus said not to believe?
I always speak well of you *grin*
I do understand the use of the word
Alright, now you are just being silly.
Where did I ever say that Christ was two persons?
Christ is one person with two natures (God-Man)
Trying to justify your own heresy by finding one in me?
No, what I do not 'worship' is a piece of bread that some 'Priest' says some magic words over and 'presto' Jesus Christ is physically the bread (even though the appearance of the bread has not changed blah, blah, blah)
John 4:24!
Concerning the word "amamnesis" (anamnesis), the Hebrew word used in Lev.2:2 is "azkarah" which means "a reminder: spec. remembrance offering: memorial." It was only used 7 times (Lev.2:2,9,16; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Num.5:26). Each reference is concerning a meal offering, not blood. The word "anamnesis" means "recollection: remembrance (again)" . It comes from "anamimnesko" which means "to recollect: - call to mind, remembrance". Mark 11:21 uses this word: "And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him...." (Emphasis mine) This is obviously not a sacrifice.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2594/rebut4.htm
That same authority is your only guarantee that the scriptures you are reading are the infallible word of God! Your interpretation of the scriptures follows the protestant tradition. Mine follows the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church!
And why do you reject His words The flesh profiteth nothing and God is a Spirit and and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth (Jn.4:24)
Why do you do make the scriptures of 'none effect' with the traditions of men (Mk.7:13)
blah, blah, blah) My, my, we are no happy camper today...
Actually, I am quite happy, thank you very much!
For we being many are one bread and one body, for we are partakers of that one bread I guess that means when you take the Romanist communion your flesh turns into bread also!
What if He meant YOUR flesh profited YOU nothing (which was exactly what he was teaching them ..their works and traditions and rules would not earn them heaven
In Mark 7..Jesus is talking to the Pharisees...not to Peter or the Apostles...it hurts my brain you would try and pit Jesus' own words against His church and accuse of Him lying..
So it was wrong for the Pharisees to cling to man made tradition but ok for the apostles? Did Jesus have a double standard?
The question is what does Jesus mean by the spirit and the flesh
Scripture interprets scripture
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
So we know from scripture that the flesh profits you nothing...and we know that Jesus said it is the Spirit that gives life..that life is NOT the law ..
Irish THAT was what they walked away from. Their traditions were law based ..do this , don't do that ...earn your way to heaven
Jesus was telling them they were not saved by works of the flesh..listen to His words again
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
He was telling them that the works of the flesh would not give them the salvation they wanted..
..I love Christ, He is my brother and I believe everything He has to say
I do not think that is true Irish ..I know you think you do..but you believe in works of the flesh to be saved.I know you love Him or you would not be looking and seeking and fighting on theses threads..but you live a faith that demands the same kind of works Jesus condemned.
You love Him..you can fall into His arms and rest from the rules..He was telling the people that He does it all. They did not like that so they walked away..
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Awesome huh? Rest in Him Irish..you love Him ..let him love you back He has done the whole thing for you:>) "it is finished" What a God we serve ..He made us and then He redeems us
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