Replies

First, let's summarize the arguments I've already made.

Al Queda IS going to get into this country from the South, exploiting our pourous borders and our generally trusting nature.
To prevent this, we can go one of two ways:
- We can put fences and guard boxes on every mile of our borders. We can put troops in the guard boxes. We can delay every car that goes across the border for half an hour as we do a detailed search of every nook and cranny where an illegal could be hiding.
  -OR-
- We can simply trace connections between Al Queda members already here, the new arrivals, and known agents in foreign countries. Through this technique, we should be able to identify all the Al Queda agents here, without inconveniencing tens of thousands of innocent people (primarily including American citizens on vacation South of the Border).
  Not only would this be loads cheaper (by billions of dollars!), it would also be enormously more effective.

Okay. There's one additional complication: It's all or nothing. If we fortify part of the border, illegals will sneak across the unfortified section. We have to do the whole thing or nothing at all. In between measures will cost us lots of money and won't reduce the flow of illegals one bit, just as France's infamous Maginot Line didn't help the French when Hitler simply bypassed it.

Fine. Let me now consider your other points.

We are a nation at war, yes.

But are we a nation at war with Mexico or Mexicans?

As far as I know, no.

As I have said in other responses here, no, I don't care where people come from, as long as they are prepared to work hard and provide services to the people of this nation, whether at a high level or a low one. I especially like Cubans; I've met a few and I'm very impressed with their pluck, determination and faith in our system. I have never met a Hatian, so I can't comment directly on them.

But perhaps this is the crux of the matter:

The issue is defending the borders of this soverign nation from those who would invade - one way or another.

Is the appearance of illegals on our shores an invasion? If you think in that way, I can surely see why the current situation would cause a panic.

But the overwhelming majority of illegals are simply here to work, to strive and to improve their economic situation. In other words, they are here to help us. They have no plans to change our government. Even when naturalized, they rarely participate in elections. And do they have weapons, with which they plan to overthrow us? Sorry, no.

Let me give you an example which I think illustrates the different points of view about illegal aliens.

To me, illegal aliens are an opportunity, because we can put them to work alongside with citizens, and overall make more stuff, and therefore more money. We can also become more competitive with factories in China, Mexico and other locations. Therefore, illegals help keep factories operating and our economy humming along.

To you, illegal aliens are a curse, because they displace citizens from jobs. But this is not the whole story; in October of this year, unemployment was low, at about 6.4%. In contrast, employment in Europe has been around 10%, in nations where the border is far less pourous and illegal immigration relatively rare. There were plenty of illegals around when our unemployment rate was at historic lows. I can only conclude that overall employment has expanded and we have successfully absorbed the illegals into our working population. What's wrong with that, then?

In other words, do you consider people coming here to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay to be thieves? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that.

So, since they are willing to become our "underclass" and do all the "grunt" jobs that we "don't want to do" then it's OK to let them in? How much more condescending can you be? This proposal sounds little different from the liberal "we're from the Governement, we're here to "help" you" mentality. And furthermore, who are you to say what jobs people here want and don't want to do? When people enter "survival" mode, they do whatever job they have the opportunity and skill-set to manage to be able to do, all while they find a way to scrabble out of whatever hole they've ended up in.

I certainly didn't mean to be condescending to anyone. I was simply reporting a truth: That Mexicans are lined up at the border, begging to become factory or service workers for very little money. And if they are willing to do this, why not let them in?

The only tenable answer is protection of existing workers. There are two things wrong with this. The first is that, as I have mentioned above, we have a very low unemployment rate and so we have jobs for more workers than we can get. I don't need to remind you what's happened to our birth rate over the past few decades; now that's biting us. Mexicans have the opposite problem - they have too many people and too few jobs. So what's wrong with us borrowing Mexicans and putting them to work? Everyone gains. We gain, with more workers; Mexico gains from the money returned to them, and the workers gain because they get better pay.

The second thing is that, as you have mentioned yourself, we are not training our citizens adequately to take even entry-level jobs. In our telemarketing department, we hire many entry-level people; there is chronic absenteeism and I have seen the effect on the company first-hand. It may be true that some of our citizens need entry level jobs, but when offered them, they often do poorly due to factors you have explored many times in your own threads.

Illegal aliens provide our entry level workers with much needed competition that will cause them to clean up their acts. In the long run, this is good for them, and it's definitely good for society.

Perhaps best of all, entry level in our system doesn't mean entry level forever.

For those who work hard and do great work, promotion is possible. Someone who comes in as a factory hand can eventually become factory manager; today's fast food clerk is tomorrow's fast food manager, or even franchise owner. If you're an illegal, you generally come in at the bottom. But that doesn't mean you have to stay that way.

And that makes me proud to be an American.

PS I apologise for the length of this; I hope I have now successfully addressed all your points.

Al Queda IS going to get into this country

Al Queda IS in this country

are we a nation at war with Mexico or Mexicans?

Does this appear as though I'm pointing my finger at just Mexico or just Mexicans?

How many foreign college students choose each year to stay in America rather than obey the conditions upon which they entered America? How many older vistors choose to stay at the end of their vacations? How many deported criminal aliens return using a different name? How many Muslims are in America illegally studing our open way of life, just waiting for an opportunity to repeat 9/11? I am sure we have illegal aliens from every country in this world enjoying the American lifestyle, helping to bring us down to a third world power. We aren't too far from becoming the country that these people left. The American culture can only absorb so many new residents each year without radical changes. We have passed that number. We must act now before the policical leaders offer them amnesty and permanently defeat our way of life. The time has come to stand up and fight for what we believe in. The Constitution will become wastepaper. The Bill of Rights will become a memory. Our flag will become a symbol of defeat.

No, I am wanting all illegal aliens to be ousted and then do a criminal check on them before allowing them back in by the legal method. I don't want anyone who is a criminal in their home country coming to the US looking to avoid prosecution in their own country. How many illegal aliens fit this catagory? Unknown. How many illegals flee to Mexico after committing a crime in the US? Hundreds.

But the overwhelming majority of illegals are simply here to work, to strive and to improve their economic situation. In other words, they are here to help us.

2 million Americans a year lose their jobs to immigrants who accept less pay for the same work.

156 posted on 11/30/2002 7:54 PM PST by Drill Alaska

You don't see anything wrong with illegal aliens who snub their nose at our federal immigration laws?I suppose you are going to say that if an illegal commits a crime he/she should not be brought to court because he/ she came here to help us and was deterred because of our legal system. We should have rewarded this criminal by giving him a job so that he could send money back to Mexico.

In other words, they are here to help us.

Then why do they have their hands out for every source of welfare available? Is this helping us or costing us. Costing us in the billions each year!

in October of this year, unemployment was low, at about 6.4%.

Do you have any idea how many Americans have gone beyond unemployment benefits?

And do they have weapons, with which they plan to overthrow us? Sorry, no.

Is it difficult to buy weapons in America? Sorry, no.

Is the appearance of illegals on our shores an invasion? If you think in that way, I can surely see why the current situation would cause a panic.

Have you heard of 911 and the history of these illegals living in the US, going to schools, changing addresses without hinderance? This is a large problem! Somehow we need to keep track of visitors and guest workers.

So, since they are willing to become our "underclass" and do all the "grunt" jobs that we "don't want to do"

No, I don't want immigrants to become our "underclass" and do all the "grunt" jobs that we "don't want to do". I want people who understand the values , standards and ideals that we have. I want them to participate in the growth of America. I don't want them to remain the underclass. Grunt work use to be where we sent our children to learn work ethics. Not anymore because those jobs are taken by illegals.

We can put fences and guard boxes on every mile of our borders. We can put troops in the guard boxes. We can delay every car that goes across the border for half an hour as we do a detailed search of every nook and cranny where an illegal could be hiding.

This is the larger problem that I haven't discussed. Daily we have thousands of containers, railroad cars, and barge freight coming into the US that doesn't even get sniffed by dogs. This is where the Border Patrol needs massive re-enforcing.

We should not be rewarding criminals for sneaking into our country. Some are looking for work, others are looking to attack and kill American citizens.