8mm
Posted on 07/25/2004 10:03:03 PM PDT by Coleus
“Some things are not subject to reasoned debate in the public square.”
That’s a fascinating comment, because it sums up the “meta-curriculum” of government skrools. The process goes like this:
1) Government skrool is understood to be a place where ALL that is subject to reasoned discourse is discoursed upon.
2) Governent skrool EXCLUDES all discourse upon (fill in the blank with God, a rational basis for moral judgments, the possibility of spiritual realities, etc.).
3) Government skrool therefore is constantly instructing its inmates that every subject that is excluded from discourse in the skrool is also not subject to reasoned discourse ANYWHERE.
Congratulations: You have demonstrated that the meta-curriculum of socialized skrools “stuck” in your case.
How dare you criticize people like KQQL, or Torie, etc. You just don’t understand MODERN SCIENCE. MODERN SCIENCE goes like this: “I just don’t FEEL like an embryo is a baby.”
That’s it. Case closed. Hey, where’s my $1 Billion in Medical Research Funds for this post?
Umm...she underwent that many in vitro attempts, meaning that the children she conceived were placed in her womb but didn’t survive.
They died a natural death due to miscarriage. She did not kill them.
There are ethical problems in IVF, and even though infertile I refused to use it (I adopted). The main ethical problem however is that too many embryos are destroyed and unwanted...
God wants every child to be conceived with love, but one only has to see that God allowed Tamar to be one of Christ’s foremothers to see that he does tend to forgive women who sin out of excess love...
Murder? I’m afraid that is a judgment that is a giant leap. First, it assumes that a fertilized egg is viable outside the womb, and that there is a soul associated with that fertilized egg. I do not believe that to be the case, and when a fertilized egg receives a soul is certainly an open question, which is why much of this particular debate is head of the pin mental exercise.
Not to mention what just and merciful God would, knowing the course that man would take, when science and technology allowed the procedure being discussed, much less the abortion question, allow millions upon millions of souls to have their destiny cut short because in some peoples humble opinion, fertilization equals a viable human.
The only people sadly mistaken on this thread, are those who think they speak for God, in a debate best left to his wisdom and knowledge. It is a real stretch to assume the sixth commandment has any bearing on what is being discussed here. As someone previously noted. If such thinking were to prevail no one would find themselves on the right hand of God.
You may be right Aurther. God may look upon this as 140 murders. I do not. I will admit that in the strictest terms, I believe life begins at fertilization. I also believe that in the strictest sense taking a life is wrong. I will also admit that I do think capital punishment is appropriate.
There are paradoxes in life. I wish there weren’t, but some times humans have to make some pretty tough choices. In this instance, I am not convinced God will deny anyone having anything to do with these procedures, access to heaven.
I am fairly confident that anyone having anything to do with abortion will have a very tough time answering for it, but then I don’t see this in those terms, under these conditions.
All but one sperm dies in the normal production of a child. Eggs are created monthly for the duration of a woman’s child bearing years. All but a few of them die. Are these two factoids also evidence of an inappropriate loss of life? I do believe there is at least one verse in the Bible that admonishes men not to spill their reproductive fluids unecessarily. That being true, I still don’t think men that do will be denied acess to heaven.
I do understand where you are coming from. In the strictest sense, you may be right and I may be wrong.
You and others certainly have the right to express your opinions on it. I would encourage you to do so, if you feel compelled to do it. I wouldn’t. I also believe that couching the arguement in the terms of 140 murders, is unfortunate. I don’t think it will garner you any support, and I do think it will encourage those who object to abortion protesters, to think of them in terms that will dismiss the validity of their objections.
Thanks for your comments Arthur. I now right to life is an important topic.
>>The bottom line question for us was: which is the greater passion, to have a child or to honor God?<<
God Bless YOU!
You have truly stated the truth that needs to be told.
...and that there is a soul associated with that fertilized egg. I do not believe that to be the case,...
Since I don't believe there is any such thing as a soul I have to agree with that. No one has ever given me a rational definition of 'soul.' But consciousness does join with the body at the moment of conception so it is a living being with a mind. The type of being it is, when it's a biological being, is determined by its DNA. The successful combining of a human sperm, human ovum and consciousness can be none other than a human being.
Not to mention what just and merciful God would, knowing the course that man would take, when science and technology allowed the procedure being discussed, much less the abortion question, allow millions upon millions of souls to have their destiny cut short because in some peoples humble opinion, fertilization equals a viable human.
By that logic; what just and merciful God would allow any of the endless and massive sufferings of the world to go on? Are you saying some suffering is fine and dandy and other suffering isn't? How did you come into possession of the knowledge of which kind is OK with God and which isn't?
The only people sadly mistaken on this thread, are those who think they speak for God, ...
Well, there you go. Pot meet kettle. Perhaps you should address your thoughts to someone who thinks God is an external self-existing being.
If such thinking were to prevail no one would find themselves on the right hand of God.
I have been told that the Bible says pretty much just that. "Many are called but few are chosen." "None are righteous, not one." ??? And so on and so forth. But, again, you will have to debate doctrinal differences with somebody who adheres to that doctrine.
What I know is that taking life is killing and killing human life has long been considered murder throughout the world by 99.9% of the world's cultures and religions. Science has confirmed, beyond all doubt or theory, that the conjunction of a human sperm and human ovum results in a living human being. By definition. No belief required.
I don’t know what will turn the tide of the attitudes of some of our more tolerant friends. I really like the appeal to the ‘legality’ of IVF. If it’s legal, then it should be permitted.
That’s the same logic that would be used in saying that since some states don’t consider it illegal to screw animals, then it should be done and nobody should complain about it or even think it wrong.
A poster previously mentioned the difference between legality and morality. The slippery slope is getting steeper as we progress to the point of eugenics. We’re nearly there and if we don’t want to wind up like the Chinese (surplus of men due to abortions of girls in the one-child state edict) or worse, we need to decide to implement proper protections of babies. Or else the Sangers of this world will handle them for us.
6 months?! Good grief ... we didn't give up even after 2 years! Our daughters are now 7 and 6 years of age.
mark and bump
Yeah, get real.
In that case I am the Josef Stalin of the Hand Party.
LOL!
I guess we have to give the Octomom some credit here. She could not bear the thought of her eight frozen embryos not having life,so she bravely offered her womb to them for nine months, at great personal risk. And they were all born healthy. Quite a medical miracle.
You are an idiot. Quote me on that.
how many embryos do you have frozen?
If it were otherwise, He would have stated so. Definitely used term womb..
The opinions on this are as varied as the people that discuss it..
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