Elderly Viking Kitty with Diabetes

1/4/10 | Battle Axe

[Nepeta]

Getting pills into a cat is a trying procedure.

I've found the best way is to wrap kitty in a thick towel with only the head sticking out. This allows a chance that your arms will not become bloodied, and reduces how much kitty can squirm. If you can find one, a "pet piller" might be useful, if you locate the kind with the soft tips. This allows you to get the pill way back in kitty's mouth past the fangs, and makes it harder to spit out.

[pbmaltzman]

The problem with homemade diets is that the vitamin/mineral/essential protein balance is hard to get just right; and raw diets sometimes have salmonella and ecoli issues that aren’t fun to deal with, especially in an already sick cat.

Well, if I'm not too stupid to feed myself, I don't suppose it could be too hard to figure out what a cat is supposed to eat (obligate carnivore). I could always research it via either the internet or books (lots out there). Sheesh.

[CAluvdubya]

I have had some success with using a little bit of a pill pocket to wrap the pill in. Then I put the pill waaaay back in kitty's mouth, back into their throat. Wrapping it in the soft pill pocket takes away any sharp edges and makes it easier to swallow.

[CAluvdubya]

Wanted to add....Baytril may make kitty nauseous. If this happens it can easily be taken care of with 1/4 tablet of Pepcid AC. No other Pepcid, just the Pepcid AC only.

1/4 tablet about 1/2 hour before pilling or eating should help nausea, if any.

I've got a mllion hints. With 4 cats, 2 past diabetics, 2 hyper thyroids and one anxiety ridden cat on Paxil, I've become a bit of a home vet to be able to save money. If you need ay help, please ask because I've probably been through it. =^..^=

[Nepeta]

Well, if I'm not too stupid to feed myself, I don't suppose it could be too hard to figure out what a cat is supposed to eat (obligate carnivore). I could always research it via either the internet or books (lots out there). Sheesh.

There are still unknowns. Cats were assumed to be much like dogs in their nutritional needs, which turned out to be a bad assumption.

[pbmaltzman]

Well, sure. There are still unknowns for humans... and just look at all the contradictory information out there.

However, cats are supposed to eat meat, not grains. Why must we be afraid to feed animals unless our choices are vetted by some "expert"?

I found a book on Raising Cats Naturally by Michelle Bernard. She adds certain supplements to pure meat, some ground and some just chunked.

After I leave California late this year (hopefully), I am going to transition my beasties to a diet similar to the one she outlines in her book.

Again, I don't think I'm too stupid to feed myself and make choices, and I don't think I'm too stupid to feed my cats decently. I'm still feeding canned and bagged food, but at least the dry food is grain-free (Evo).

I don't want to end up with my cats getting kidney failure because all they were given was dry food. I hear rumors that people can have cats live healthy lives into their mid-20s and sometimes beyond. I'd like that for my cats. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to achieve that.

[Nepeta]

I found a book on Raising Cats Naturally by Michelle Bernard. She adds certain supplements to pure meat, some ground and some just chunked.

A very wise animal nutritionist I once knew--a real nutritionist--would ask, "What is natural?" Indeed. Natural for cats is small animals and birds, but that diet is not without problems, and the animals who subsist in this manner don't live very long compared to indoor cats.

Again, I don't think I'm too stupid to feed myself and make choices, and I don't think I'm too stupid to feed my cats decently.

The last time I checked, there was a major difference between stupidity and wisdom. Stupidity is the inability to understand or process information. Wisdom is the acquisition and integration of information, and putting it to practical use.

However, cats are supposed to eat meat, not grains. Why must we be afraid to feed animals unless our choices are vetted by some "expert"?

Because science, real science, is not a philosophical exercise. Nutrition is a matter of chemistry and biology. The need for taurine in the feline diet was not determined by pondering the matter, nor was the fact that cats are indeed obligate carnivores, but by feeding trials. That's the way real nutrition is done.

[CAluvdubya]

As long as you follow a recipe you should be fine. I, for a time, made my own raw food for my cats. They ate it for awhile but then turn their pink little noses up at it. Now I just feed then Fancy Feast. It has the most amount of protein as long as I get the loaf flavors and no slices with gravy, and not as expensive as some of the other brands..

Make sure you get a good meat grinder. You need one that is strong enough to grind up bones. You don't want any bones to cause problems for kitty.

You're on the right track as your babies will be better off with a raw diet. It will be awesome when you can ditch that Evo, too. It may be a tad better than most brands but it's still dry food and pretty much just Kitty crack.

Good Luck and why wait? u can get what you need right here in CA. That's where I live. (just transition slowly) =^..^=

[pbmaltzman]

Because science, real science, is not a philosophical exercise. Nutrition is a matter of chemistry and biology. The need for taurine in the feline diet was not determined by pondering the matter, nor was the fact that cats are indeed obligate carnivores, but by feeding trials. That's the way real nutrition is done.

I'm more than somewhat leery of "experts." "Experts" are the ones, complete with fancy degrees to "certify" them, who have given us the "low-fat"/high-carb hysteria for the last several decades. It looks to me as if paleo (low-carb and higher fat) does better things for people.

It's also "experts" who have foisted statins on us, with which I totally disagree.

And while I'm glad that surgery has advanced to the point where scary operations such as bypass and valve replacement can be routine, I find it horrible that so many people "need" them. There are also major questions about whether people live much longer after undergoing these operations.

Again, I'm not too stupid to feed myself, and I'm not too stupid to read about cat nutrition and figure that out.

[pbmaltzman]

I bought a barely-used Tasin grinder (the type recommended by the book author cited) off eBay for about half of the cost of a brand-new one. It will handle all sorts of meat, and it will grind chicken bones.

I just don't have time to use it yet and transition the furbabies over to that kind of a diet. I will also probably use the grinder to make my own hamburger... why buy hamburger for $2 to $3 per pound, when I can buy round steak on sale and grind it up?

I did notice that some of the Fancy Feast flavors have grains and other crap in them, so I guess that I would only buy certain flavors. There are a couple of local feed stores which carry several acceptable-to-me brands. Wellness (formerly Old Mrs. Hubbard's) has a couple of grain-free flavors of canned food.

The main reason I don't have time to use the grinder is that I have been working seven days a week to clear out some debt. Until then, I am feeding the cats Evo (weirdly enough, they like the dry food but not the Evo canned), some other types of canned food, and some raw and/or cooked meat.

Once the debt has been cleared, then we are going to save up and get the heck out of the People's Republic of California. We can take our jobs with us, so we will move to a less-expensive place to live, where it won't take working seven days per week to keep a roof over our head.

[CAluvdubya]

Sounds like you're doing an awesome job!

Arnold will miss your taxes :)

[Nepeta]

I'm more than somewhat leery of "experts." "Experts" are the ones, complete with fancy degrees to "certify" them, who have given us the "low-fat"/high-carb hysteria for the last several decades.

You're free to make up your own reality and trash the technically trained, but I find real, hard science [not the kind of pop-drivel that fuels fads] to be a lot more useful. Fancy degrees? Belittling people who spend the time and effort to understand chemistry, physiology, biology, and practical animal management? You don't pick that kind of thing up by reading a couple of articles written for a general audience and compress years of schooling into 20 minutes.

And while I'm glad that surgery has advanced to the point where scary operations such as bypass and valve replacement can be routine, I find it horrible that so many people "need" them.

When humans lived more "naturally", say, in medieval Europe prior to the adoption of chimneys, when everyone huddled together to stay warm and share fleas and lice, nobody lived long enough to develop these problems. A 30 year old adult was a very old human in 1250. Live long enough, and your body will wear out, as opposed to being overrun with infections or parasitic infestations. We're seeing the same thing in indoor cats, spared the contagious diseases and physical perils of the outdoor life. They live long enough to develop problems.

I'm smart enough to know how little I know, and I realize that taking care of my cats as they age means keeping up with the science.

[pbmaltzman]

The doctor who diagnosed me with diabetes could have used some "light popular" reading. He was still stuck on stupid, if you ask me... as in counting calories instead of carbs, going heavy on the prescriptions, advising me to take a statin, etc.

He would not even look at the mound of material I had brought him, which I had already read, concerning low-carb dieting for diabetes (which I suspected I had)--some of which books and articles were written by other MD's who were much more nutritionally aware. He had obviously not been reading anything much more up-to-date than what he'd gotten in medical school.

When someone with a fancy degree is that stupid, you better believe that I will run away instead of walk.

I'm not claiming that I am smarter than doctors, or even that I know everything--far from it. I'm just not into worshiping doctors as little tin gods. I'm not into blindly following their advice, because I know for sure that they make mistakes too.

And if I were into taking prescription medications, I'd be more inclined to take a pharmacist's word for it, because they have MUCH more chemistry training, and they are much more aware of what will cross-react with what else.

I do medical transcription for a living--and every once in a while I do a report for someone who is taking so many medications (all prescribed by someone with a fancy degree) that they are actually worse off--as in, stuporous, with kidney damage, etc.

It's also my understanding that a lot of veterinarians aren't taught much about animal nutrition, whereas they are taught a lot about surgery and writing prescriptions. Now, sometimes you need surgery and prescriptions... but the animal might not have needed surgery and drugs in the first place had it been fed a better diet.

The prerequisites for veterinary school sometimes, but not always, include ONE course on animal feeds and feeding--maybe two. (I found out because I used to want to be a vet, and I checked out things such as prerequisites and ratios of applicants to seats available in several veterinary schools.) It's not enough, if you ask me.

To name just one problem... renal failure is often a long-term consequence of feeding a cat high-carbohydrate, cheap supermarket crap food. But the last time I took any of my cats to a local vet, the vet tech was telling me to feed them ONLY dry food. Just a little bit of a contradiction there?

If fresh foods for humans are better than canned food and fast food, I would expect (for much the same reasons) that fresh foods, especially fresh raw foods, would be better for cats than dry food that is full of grains, fillers, and possibly even toxic stuff (remember the scandal about the Chinese adding melamine to animal feeds).

Yes, I could probably keep my cats going for a few more years on crappy food... but they'll be spending lots of time in the vet's office because of dehydration brought on by dry foods with high carbohydrates.

My oldest cat, now 12-1/2, probably won't live as long as the other two, because I adopted her at 7-1/2 years of age, and she had been fed only crappy dry food by her previous owner. When I adopted her, she had horrible breath and had to have two teeth pulled, along with cleaning the rest... complications of the crappy diet she'd been fed before I took her in. And yes, at 12-1/2 years, she's older than some cats, but she's not as healthy as she'd have been with a better diet.

Re: Your assertion that 30 was old in medieval times: There have always been people who lived to ripe old ages, even in medieval times. It's not as if they were all dropping like flies as soon as they reached 30. The number "30" may be an average, but it doesn't mean that no one lived a long life.

I'm all in favor of real science--but people with fancy degrees succumb to fads just like anyone else. Also witness how politicized science is nowadays, and how some people have turned into what are charitably termed "grant whores." Also witness how many of 'em voted for the Obummer. Some of them wouldn't know objectivity if it smacked 'em in the face.

So, no, I'm not too stupid to either feed myself or to figure out how to feed an obligate carnivore.

[pbmaltzman]

Heh... thanks! I won’t miss Ahnold, though, or the high cost of everything here. We’re anticipating paying half of the rent and half of what utilities cost here (esp. electricity). I can’t wait but I must. :)

[pbmaltzman]

Heh... thanks! I won’t miss Ahnold, though, or the high cost of everything here. We’re anticipating paying half of the rent and half of what utilities cost here (esp. electricity). I can’t wait but I must. :)

[Nepeta]

I'm all in favor of real science--but people with fancy degrees succumb to fads just like anyone else. Also witness how politicized science is nowadays, and how some people have turned into what are charitably termed "grant whores." Also witness how many of 'em voted for the Obummer. Some of them wouldn't know objectivity if it smacked 'em in the face.

So, of course, you now know more than anyone who has spent years studying human or veterinary medicine, or chemistry or physiology or microbiology, because a handful of such people are loons.

Good luck with that.

I have the good fortune of having a doctor who works with me when I have a problem. That's why I have been going to him for 20 years. Not all doctors are slugs, or expect to be worshipped.

Nowhere in this thread did I advocate feeding dry food of any sort--quite the opposite. I give people good canned cat food to try to wean them away from the convenience of dry foods.

And if I were into taking prescription medications,

The need for prescription medications isn't something one is "into", like jazz or painting water colors. I don't have a thyroid gland anymore. I'm not "into" taking replacement thyroid hormone, I won't function normally without it.

If fresh foods for humans are better than canned food and fast food,

Get past superficial labels. Nutrition is about chemistry, and the reality is molecules have NO souls. Analyze the cooked hamburger from Burger King and the cooked hamburger from your own kitchen, and it will have the same analysis of amino acids. "Fast food" is not inherently evil or bad--eating a lot of fatty food prepped in your own kitchen day after day isn't wise, either.

Canned food is one of the great triumphs of human ingenuity. Before canned food, food preservation was limited to what people could dry, salt, or harvest in an already storable form.

Re: Your assertion that 30 was old in medieval times: There have always been people who lived to ripe old ages, even in medieval times. It's not as if they were all dropping like flies as soon as they reached 30. The number "30" may be an average, but it doesn't mean that no one lived a long life.

Most people being long croaked by age 30 with a handful of outliers does not make longevity commonplace or something people planned upon. That's why the concept of childhood is a recent one because children were treated as small adults, and married as soon as they hit puberty. Most children never got that far. A walk through an old American family cemetery is an eye-opener--most are full of children's graves.

fresh raw foods

There are good reasons for cooking some foods, not just because digestibility is improved but because eating them raw is likely unsafe because of bacteria or parasites. Unless you are also planning on slaughtering your own meat, you'd better be careful with where you acquire meat. If you are going to be grinding meat, I'd urge you also to have a way to thoroughly disinfect all surfaces beyond soap and hot water after each use.

For a lot of people, nutrition is a religion in much the same way that global warming catastrophism is a religion. Just like the warmists, they don't want evidence, they want "locally grown" "organic" foods. It makes them feel wonderful to spend a lot of money for such food so they can commune with special and sacred molecules. I usually let them go on their way worshipping because they only affect themselves.

But when it comes to kitteh, kitteh is at their mercy, and I tell them bluntly that cats are obligate carnivores who do not have the metabolic capacity to handle processing of carbohydrates as we do, and that dry food has a high potential of leading to problems later, so break out the can opener and start feeding canned food of quality. Dry food also tends to produce cats who do not get enough water, and produces male cats who plug up and do not pass urine properly, with dire effects and eventual death.

I wouldn't want to drive over a bridge designed by well-meaning amateurs instead of professional engineers with "fancy" degrees who understand things I do not about materials handling, corrosion, stress loads, metallurgy, and more. I love reading about challenging construction and building, and how problems were solved and innovations made, but I am not an engineer.

[Purdue Pete]

Ping...has Gus been tested for diabetes?

[LTC.Ret]

Just checking back in to see if “kitty” is doing OK and hoping that things are going reasonably well for y’all.

[Battle Axe]

I’m one of those business owners who is in trouble with credit cards etc. I tried to pay for the diabetic dry food with the credit card and it would not go through. I was slightly over the limit.

So I took that as a sign from God that I was not to put any more money in this. That God gave Miss Peach a life and she could live out that life with me, I would care for her, but not use extreme measures to keep her alive.

So I am using diet, which is not good according to this vet, Fancy Feast, nothing in gravy and rice and lamb dry food with very little corn, and she seems to be doing fine. She has not changed her habits, still drinks a little extra water, but she still eats well and sleeps in her favorite places. She is still real cranky, but always was. Her weight is now down to 15 pounds.

My view of life for her is the same for me. Using insulin would not lengthen her life too much longer. And I do believe, maybe wrongly, that she could be at risk for an overdose.

There is no fixing the problem. If I were to get cancer, I would not go through chemo. etc. If there is little chance of fixing what is wrong, I would opt out.

She will be 15 years old on March 1. She still waits by the door to be fed, as I lock her in a porch so Bootsie won’t steal it. She sits on the arm of the recliner and watches NASCAR.

Thanks for asking. We are ok.

BA