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To: x
That is actually an interesting theory.

But Obama's mom didn't seem like the sort of person who did things by the book. If Indonesia said her child had to be a Muslim and the son of a citizen, I really doubt she had him converted or adopted. She probably just told the authorities what she or Lolo thought they wanted to hear.

Stanley Ann may not have had to DO anything. I have read quite a bit from others on this subject. It is my current understanding that Under 1960s Indonesian law, a child is AUTOMATICALLY adopted if he is under the age of five when his mother Marries an Indonesian citizen. (Here is the law in effect at that time.)

The only requirement is that the father must identify the child as his in front of a government official who comes to the house.

(1)A foreign child of less than 5 years age who is adopted by a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if such an adoption is declared legal by the Pengadilan Negeri at the residence of the person adopting the child.

If this occurred (very likely) then Grandma Dunham may have been advised by her lawyer to use a subsequent adoption to straighten out the mess this might cause for him as an American Citizen.

Likewise with turning her son over to her parents. There may or may not have been some kind of guardianship or power of attorney, but I doubt she'd let the grandparents legally adopt him. By all accounts she wasn't much for paperwork and formalities. If nothing was on paper, she could maintain that what happened was temporary and that she was still a good and responsible mother.

From my perspective, Stanley was a outlier starting with her name. Everything she did was not typical by the standards of the day. (Studying Russian in 1960?) From my perspective (and the fact that she DID leave him with the Grandparents for the next 8 years) allowing them to do whatever they wanted was perfectly within her character. SHE may not have been much for paperwork, but Bank Vice President Madelyn Dunham lived by it. I have little doubt she sought legal advice for what to do.

Also, if it was just about paperwork, I really doubt they would have wanted to bring Barack Sr. to Hawaii. They could have worked through a lawyer and just exchanged documents.

I've seen that discussed. It has been suggested that the Original father can assert a position of better legal authority (in conjunction with the actual mother) to demand his rights to the child, and then subsequently sign them over to the Grandmother.

This is uncharted waters for most legal types I would assume. How often does an American Grandparent acquire guardianship of her American Grandchild which was adopted by a foreign national?

As for Poor, (financially weak) broken down, Drunk, Barack Obama Sr. getting to Hawaii, how and why would he do such a thing? He even mentions that he is there on "Family business" though I don't have that quote readily available.

Barack Sr. could not afford to fly to Hawaii in 1971, and he could barely walk. (Crippled from previous drunk driving accidents.) It makes sense that his financier for the trip (and the Hotel Room where he stayed) was Madelyn Dunham, Vice President of the Bank. If this is the case, then his presence must have been necessary for some reason, and I can only assume it was to sign legal documents and affirm before a Judge.

79 posted on 03/01/2012 5:34:57 PM PST by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp

I don’t think the grandparents would have adopted Barry Soetoro, but instead they simply got legal guardianship. The divorce records still suggested that Lolo Soeotoro was still legally Barry’s father.


86 posted on 03/01/2012 5:46:36 PM PST by edge919
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To: DiogenesLamp
Stanley Ann may not have had to DO anything. I have read quite a bit from others on this subject. It is my current understanding that Under 1960s Indonesian law, a child is AUTOMATICALLY adopted if he is under the age of five when his mother Marries an Indonesian citizen. (Here is the law in effect at that time.) The only requirement is that the father must identify the child as his in front of a government official who comes to the house.

But that doesn't sound like something our government would recognize. In fact, your "adoption" of Barack sounds a lot like my "non-adoption." How likely is it that something like this would have gotten back to the State Department or the Hawaiian Department of Health and meant a change in his passport or birth certificate. From what we know, it's not at all clear that such an "adoption" or "non-adoption" would have meant any change at all in Obama's citizenship.

In fact, it probably wouldn't have. I'm not sure about the exact law at the time, but nowadays the child (if he had reached the right age) would have had to swear before a US official that he was abandoning his citizenship, and I'd be willing to bet that never happened (though we won't know for years if it did or if it didn't). If you want to argue that Obama was adopted and this changed his passport or his citizenship or his birth certificate, a very informal or irregular "adoption" makes your case weaker than a more correct and formal adoption would.

SHE may not have been much for paperwork, but Bank Vice President Madelyn Dunham lived by it. I have little doubt she sought legal advice for what to do.

One problem with all the theorizing is that people have an ability to compartmentalize their lives. The woman who's a tiger about paperwork at work, may not want forms and red-tape cluttering up her relationships with her children and grandchildren. I can't say for sure what if anything happened, but I suspect the laxity of the two Stanleys and Madeline's maternal feelings could have outweighed any desire to formalize or legalize their guardianship through adoption. As I've said, though, it would have been possible to become the child's guardians without going so far as to adopt him.

It makes sense that his financier for the trip (and the Hotel Room where he stayed) was Madelyn Dunham, Vice President of the Bank. If this is the case, then his presence must have been necessary for some reason, and I can only assume it was to sign legal documents and affirm before a Judge.

That's possible, but as I've said, we want to make other people far simpler than they are in fact, especially if we don't like them. That's part of what I meant by "compartmentalization": a bank VP isn't always a bank VP in all her interactions and relationships. It's not impossible that family troubles and uncertainties got to the point where they felt -- however silly it might have looked later on -- that Barack Sr would have been a positive influence on Barack II.

But one thing you might already know: the Soetoros did adopt Lia, an Indonesian girl. If they legally and formally adopted Lia it might lend support to your theory. But once again, it's something we won't know about for years to come, if even then.

198 posted on 03/02/2012 2:06:01 PM PST by x
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