Posted on 03/30/2013 1:29:01 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
Because I love history and science. Why do you care about it?
When one has nothing to contribute they scream troll.
I don’t dispute the existence of Jesus. I do wonder why some are so desperate to try and prove some things by clutching at straws. Isn’t your faith enough for you? Religion is based on faith, not evidence.
Yes, true. But it can be a nice booster for some who need it in their doubts.
Exactly. I don’t need a shroud. It is a fascinating subject for scientific debate. For the faithful it should be nothing more.
Thank you for the correction.
There is hugh forensic evidence tying the Shroud to Jesus. You might inform yourself before spouting. The evidence is immense. Go to the websites,study the evidence.
too many people making the shroud an idol
And the evidence IS scientific. Again, you write from total ignorance if you say zero scientific evidence exists.
And the facial features on the Shroud match up perfectly with the tradition of Jesus Icons in the East. Evidence points to the fact that the original icons were written (icon-speak for painted) with the Shroud image in mind (we have records of it being displayed approximately annually in Constantinople). Icons throughout history and around the world have a good degree of similarity, suggesting that they follow an ancient model and that this model was derived from the Shroud.
Think of it for a minute: there has to be a reason why the face cloth and the shroud are mentioned in John’s Gospel and that care is taken to distinguish the two.
Could it be that when they picked up those gravecloths that day and saw the facial image, they were overwhelmed at the thought that He left behind a facial image for them???? And they preserved that image.
The old saw that no one knows what Jesus looked like may be false. Much evidence (including scientific evidence, but also historical evidence) points to that conclusion.
You are, apparently thinking of representations of Jesus as being derived from Salman’s Head of Christ, 19th c. What a pitifully narrrow world you inhabit.
I agree that Salman’s Head of Christ turns him into a Western European and is misleading and should be taken down off all the Protestant Church walls on which it hangs.
But why do you assume that your narrow Protestant world of pictures of Christ is the sum of all the representations of Christ?
There are thousands of years of icons portraying Christ and he doesn’t look like a white northern European there.
Broaden your horizons. Open your mind to the possiblity tha the very Scripture you revere points to the veneration of this relic of Jesus from day one.
You with your “I don’t need no help to my belief, all I need is grace” mantra: Scripture itself tells us that people saw these gravecloths as a very important part of the historical record of the empty tomb. The Shroud of Turin was part of the faith of the Apostles who wrote the New Testament you revere. They didn’t think honoring this holy Relic of the Savior went against pure faith
But you do. Why? We are more scriptural than you.
See no. 69
Too many people calumniating us by making false claims about us.
No one treats the Shroud as an idol.
You bear false witness against us. Please withdraw this falsehood.
So John’s Gospel clutches at straws? You are holier than the Bible. Good luck with that.
May I remind you of the meaning of “idol”—to treat a creature as if it were God.
Where is your evidence that anyone anywhere ever treated the Shroud of Turin as God?
Words mean things. When you throw around the word idol lightly you bear false witness. Idolatry is a serious charge.
try suggesting that the shroud be burned , see what response you get . the shroud is being used as “proof” that Jesus was resurrected , but that’s what faith is all about . it’s why God didn’t announce where Moses was buried , because the Israelites would have made his burial site a monument . the only item we need to aim our hearts to is Christ
You used the word idol. It has a meaning.
Try suggesting that the copies of the Declaration of Independence in the National Archives be burned. What reaction would you get? Does that mean anyone anywhere thinks the DoI is God?
Nothing else you write has any credibility until you acknowledge that you lied about those who venerate the Shroud as a historical artifact, not an idol.
Try suggesting that the Bible your great-great-great grandfathr brought from Scotland be burned. (If you had your great-great-great grandfather’s Bible from Scotland. This is merely an example to make a point that even you ought to be able to understand. Don’t reply by saying that your gr-gr-gr-grandfather wasn’t from Scotland.)
Try suggesting that your wife’s wedding dress from 50 years ago be burned. (Again, an example, not meant literally. A thought-experiment.)
Try suggesting that the Magna Carta be burned.
Try suggesting that the Gettysburg Battlefield be bulldozed and turned into a condo development.
Those are all direct analogies. People would be outraged if any of the above were done. But they did not worship any of those things as idols.
Retract your calumny.
The Shroud is used by some as evidence of the empty Tomb and as a link to a historical event in Scripture.
Do you or do you not believe that John’s Gospel is historically true when it says that Peter and John ran to the tomb and saw it empty and the graveclothes lying there?
Those who argue that the image being produced by oxidation of only the tips of fibers proves the Resurrection was a burst of intense radiation are a small subset of Shroudies. Even they make that suggestion as a speculation. I think it’s unwise speculation.
And even they do not treat the Shroud as an idol. They think it is a physical historical artifact testifying to the physics of the Resurrection. Physics. Get that, physics. Unwarranted conclusion in my view. But even they are speaking of historical artifact and physical evidence.
They do not treat it as an idol.
Most of us think that, as a physical artifact, it testifies to the a historial accuracy of the Scripture account of the empty Tomb.
Protestants who believe in the historical accuracy of the Gospels (as do orthodox Catholics) should WELCOME the Shroud as one more piece of remarkable evidence supporting what we already believe about the Bible.
Instead you attack by MISREPRESENTING what we believe about the Shroud. Stop the distortion of what we believe. OPen your mind to the possibility of the preservation over centuries of a physical piece of evidence to what you and I already believe about the truth of Scripture.
What’s so hard about that?
Find me a scripture that suggests the shroud should be venerated.
There is interesting analysis of the behavior of the players which attest to Hids resurrection. How the apostles reacted, how the Romans reacted, and how the Caiaphas camp reacted following news of the empty tomb, when taken together from the different expectations of each camp attests to the reality that He is Risen.
An imagined facial resemblance is not science no matter how much one goes into contortions.
If it was ever proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the shroud had nothing to do with Jesus, would you lose faith? Is your faith that weak?
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