Hellfire and a Loving God

American Faith Today ^ | January 16, 2016 | American Faith Today

[American Faith Today]

One of the great worries and one of the great questions that many who may be on the fence have when it comes to God is, "How can a loving God torture His children who simply don't believe in Him forever and ever in hell?" Well, hopefully today I'll be able to establish for you that He does not. I'm certainly not going to claim it will be a complete rebuttal or cover all possible ground. But I'll do my best and hopefully let truth win out and reign supreme and let scripture dictate for you whether I'm correct today, or whether I'm incorrect. It may not be the most popular or joyous subject, but it is one that is important, I think, to know the truth on, and I believe as well again one that because it truly does trouble so many, again, "How can God do such a thing", well, I believe He can't and He won't. That's the show live today at 4:30 Eastern time, and archived afterward

[Mark17]

The punishment is eternal because the payment is never satisfied.

I agree, but here is another angle to this dilemma for them. People are in the Lake of Fire forever. It means just that: Forever, never to end. They will not become extinct. They will not cease to exist.
Here is the angle. When an evil man dies, he does not suddenly become a person desirous of becoming holy and righteous. He is still the same evil man. In Hell, he continues to commit sin, so that might be another reason that the payment is never satisfied. Sin never stops. Jer 17:9 says the heart is desperately wicked. My opinion is, as the eternity of eternities rolls on for eternity, they will become more and more wicked. Who knows for sure and that may not be all that important, but that is my opinion.
John R Rice wrote a good booklet on the subject as well.

[daniel1212]

Not to be tormented in fire forever and ever. Satan himself as it says in Ezekiel 28 is turned to ashes from within. There’s not a lot left to burn when all you have is ashes.

That refers to destruction "upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee," thus referring being in a visible form, while Revelation 20:10 clearly speaks of the spiritual reality:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

And "ever and ever" means just that with believers. The wishful idea that all the dire warnings of how it would be better to pluck out an eye, chop off a hand or leg rather than go into unquenchable fire, and of weeping wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels, only refers to some temporary pain in annihilation is hardly much of a deterrent to living a life satisfying one's lusts, and makes a mockery of the Lord's words with their intended effect. Annihilationists try to make God confirm to their liberal idea of what they think a "loving God" would do, even to calling children of wrath and of the devil to be children of God!

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

That makes sense because they will have no common grace restrain. It may not be so much that he becomes more evil. His full evil becomes more evident minus God’s restraining grace and the influence of God’s redemptive work in the world. There will be no restraint on the punishment nor restraint on the evil deeds of the wicked. No prayers to offset anything. So they will be more wicked in that wickedness feels off itself. But the root, the seed, the potential, will have been there from the start.

[thecodont]

And our God IS a consuming fire. And since souls are forever, then I could easily see that being in the presence of a holy God in an unredeemed, unprotected state, would feel like burning.

That's how I understand it also. The Almighty revealed Himself as holy fire to Moses, to the children of Israel as He led them through the desert, and to the prophet Elijah and the priests of Baal.

Thank God for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sins.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

feeds off itself, not feels off itself. Sorry.

[thecodont]

And our God IS a consuming fire. And since souls are forever, then I could easily see that being in the presence of a holy God in an unredeemed, unprotected state, would feel like burning.

That's how I understand it also. The Almighty revealed Himself as holy fire to Moses, to the children of Israel as He led them through the desert, and to the prophet Elijah and the priests of Baal.

Thank God for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sins.

[daniel1212]

My opinion is, as the eternity of eternities rolls on for eternity, they will become more and more wicked.

I disagree with that, as based on the rich man in Lk. 16, one can have good desires but as part of the punishment be grieved at the consequences of your actions. In order words, given life back on earth then the rich man would repent, as even Sodom would have if they saw the level of grace that cities like Capernaum did. (Mt. 11:23) But God owes no grace at all to anyone, save in the sense that He promised rewards, and yet we owe all to Him. And all angels and morally sentient man have reject the light God gave, and in so dong in essence have rejected Christ, and will be sentenced according to the grace given them.

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Hebrews 2:1-4)

[daniel1212]

So these people, it seems to me, although it is not perfectly clear to me, end up banished to ‘outer darkness’. But is also seems to me that ‘outer darkness’ just means not in the city of God or not close to the glory of God. So while outer darkness sounds terrible - it’s actually pretty nice. Another name for it is paradise.

Nice? Paradise? Are you serious?

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth . (Matthew 8:11-12)

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth . (Matthew 22:12-13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

A perpetual root canal could be "nicer!'

[Mark17]

Thank you.

[metmom]

AMEN

[Elsie]

Today's show is a study on what happens to those people who don't make it to heaven?

Well...

...according to the MORMONs...

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Mormonism really doesn't HAVE a 'hell'.

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AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.

 

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

• Telestial - where unbelievers go
• Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the Church.
• Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.

HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.

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Mormonism has taught that those in the Telestial kingdom will have paid for their own sins in spirit prison, a temporary hell which serves as a place of purging before entrance into heaven (cf. D&C 138: 58-59).

Orson F. Whitney preached:

"But those who reject the Gospel altogether and are besotted and crimestained---what of them? It is written that they will be thrust down to hell; even the murderer, the liar, the sorcerer, and the whoremonger. They will, in short, be damned. But they will only be damned to the extent justified by their sins. Even for them there is hope, after they have 'paid the uttermost farthing.' They will be punished, as all men must be, for neglect of duty, for transgression of the laws of God; but after they have been punished sufficiently, they will be brought forth and saved in a glory of which the stars in heaven are typical." ("The Three Great Teachers", May 8, 1898; Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses 1886-1898, v. 5)

Chapter 41 of the 2009 Gospel Principles manual quotes D&C 19 and concurs the same:

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, 'Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit' (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom" (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 244).

[Elsie]

What about the two year old child who died in the Athenian plague circa 429 B.C.? Did the child go to hell?

Romans 2:1-16   (NIV)

1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ² Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. ³ So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? ⁴ Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

⁵ But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. ⁶ God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” ⁷ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. ⁸ But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. ⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

¹² All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. ¹³ For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. ¹⁴ (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. ¹⁵ They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) ¹⁶ This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[Elsie]

The point is do we have a God who burns ANYONE forever in hell.

And yet HE has made a way to escape this!

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The point is we DO have a God who allows ANYONE forever in His presence in Heaven.

Beats hittin' a 1.5 BILLION dollar lottery!

[Elsie]

So while outer darkness sounds terrible - it’s actually pretty nice. Another name for it is paradise.

So; Jesus was in Outer Darkness with the Good Thief?

Sorry; but there are way too many unknowns for me to buy into this scenario!

[Elsie]

But frankly the scripture just isn't 100% clear.

True; but it's good enough!

No non-biblical teachings needed to 'fully' explain all things to our feeble, inquiring, human minds.

[Elsie]

I don’t know.

A lot of folks will not accept this simple answer.

Demanding to 'know', they miss out.

[Elsie]

Some say that sin did NOT enter the world until that first bite; but how did Satan have sin found in him?

He was there to tempt Eve...

[Elsie]

...but how did Satan have sin found in him?

Tangential red herring; drug though the trailer park by yet another Devil's Advocate...

[Elsie]

But for those that have not been saved, God's light will instead feel like the eternal fires of hell shining on the person's sin.

Exodus 32:32-33
 But now, if you will forgive their sin -- but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."  But the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

 

Daniel 12:1
 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

 

 

 

Philippians 4:3
 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

 

 

Revelation 17:8
 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

 

Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

Revelation 21:27

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[Elsie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XvkM8zw3E

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4itMSG2VFw