Posted on 01/31/2016 9:23:41 AM PST by Sioux-san
There are several reasons why we have chosen not to dig into this specific aspect of this event, after posting the first three research articles. Here are the ones we are comfortable stating:
The freedom continuum has two diametrically opposing forces on either end. On one end, the left, if you travel outward from democracy to socialism to communism eventually you arrive at totalitarianism. The absolute power of government over the individual. The maximum amount of liberty lost.
On the oppositional end, the right, again if you travel from democracy to a constitutional republic and keep going, eventually you arrive at a place absent of any government. This is anarchy. This is law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Mad Max type societal tribe formation.
Neither path, left nor right, is good when taken to its ultimate conclusion.
However, the freedom continuum is not linear.
(Excerpt) Read more at theconservativetreehouse.com ...
I watched the video. The video supports that this was a good shoot. Eyewitness have a tendency to lie. Especially if they can be charged with a crime in regard to what they had witnessed.
There were witnesses that said that Michael Brown was just standing there holding his hands in the air when the cop just murdered him in cold blood. Lots of witnesses. All of whom lied or weren’t even there.
How reliable are these witnesses? Do they have ulterior motives for the statements they are making/ Does the objective visual evidence support their stories?
I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I don’t know these witnesses. I don’t know what the forensic evidence shows. But from this film, which appears to be unedited, it was a good shoot.
Now show me some “objective” evidence to refute it.
Do you know what “objective” is?
If I am out in the middle of nowhere and I am being followed by known hostiles, no I don’t stop. I keep going until I get to town where there are more people and witnesses. Why didn’t LOE let them get to town? They knew where they were going. Why ramp it up?
We do indeed love those wide open spaces out West. More than half of the Western states are controlled solely by the federal govt. Half of Oregon is under federal control (BLM and USFS) and more than 80% of Nevada (1/4 in Washington, as I recall?). Jobs have been lost to many people out there due to the SJWs of our Bureaucracies. Proper stewardship is possible, but more and more of the land is taken by the Feds and not properly managed. That is why the Hammonds are in prison, branded as Terrorists! Now they will lose their land, too. That is justice???
We could go back and forth on this, but suffice it to say that Bundy et.al. had every right to go to Oregon and to protest Govt. abuse. We all should have that right. Yes, there will be a day in court. Bundy, et.al. will go to prison. Yay, the stop sign runners and bird lovers are finally off the street.
I’m surprised we aren’t still paying a tea tax.
If you ever find yourself in a similar situation, jumping out of the truck and running is not the way to go.
Agreed, but not so sure the goal was no kills. Two men shooting at Finicum. Shooting randomly at the occupied vehicle. Nahhh, this stinks to high heaven. It’s not like they were chasing Bonnie and Clyde. Just some very angry men who were protesting the unjust imprisonment of fellow ranchers and yet another land grab by the Feds. This happened in Nevada at the Bundy ranch, and that is why they are in sympathy with the Hammonds. That was in the summer when more people could get out there in support. Dead of winter in east Oregon...hardly anyone even knows what happened or why.
It would have been a much better movie that way. Needs to have Nazis dropping around her in a circle as she spins.
And no thread on this subject would be complete without this little tidbit:
http://henrymakow.com/2016/01/crisis-actors-used-to-discredit.html
It looked to me that he was in the act of disarming himself under the direction of law enforcement. e.g. Throw your weapon on the ground.
I think they planned to shoot in while he was in the act of disarming himself. That makes it premeditated murder.
He was not a stupid man. He would have not tried to have a shoot out with guns all around him. He would have figured that he could cop a plea to trespassing.
Their axiom is partly very wrong:
“...if you travel from democracy to a constitutional republic and keep going, eventually you arrive at a place absent of any government. This is anarchy. This is law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Mad Max type societal tribe formation.”
This is not true, but an illusion created by government to justify itself. Use this chain of thought:
1) How often do you need government, as such, in your daily life? Do not equate government with the things that have been built by government, but think of government solely as elected, appointed, or hired people.
2) Even at a low level, if you think of the government as the police, this is inaccurate. The *people* are the police. The uniformed police are just a convenience so that the people can do other things. Fire departments are more to the point, as they maintain and use powerful fire fighting equipment. But they are still a convenience. If they didn’t do that, ordinary people would have to.
3) Government exists as part of the social contract, an agreement by the majority to have managers of day to day business for the public. But there are plenty of people who live *outside* the organizational part of the social contract. And they certainly do not live in “anarchy”, just an absence of government in most of their lives.
At the local level, government is “hired” to do these tasks. It doesn’t mean you have to have them. But if you don’t, you have to do that job yourself.
On the opposite extreme, it can be said that the two purposes of a national government are defense against foreign armies and nations, as well as criminals who operate at the national level. A third purpose is to mediate between state governments. And some other things.
Lack of government does not mean anarchy or chaos.
I think you are right.
Must have been one hell of a taser. I didn't see anyone near enough to him to use a taser. Is there a piece of video I missed?
I mean this fella was outta the vehicle seconds after it was lodged into the snow bank.
(reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ )
Table 1.
FBI video approximate
event timestamp run time location
A video start 25:32 0:00 N 43.80438 W 118.98939
B stop 26:42 1:10 N 43.81393 W 118.98290
C leave 33:48 8:15 unchanged
D roadblock 34:48 9:15 N 43.82744 W 118.97138
Table 2.
approximate duration estimated
description distance (miles) (mm:ss) average mph
event A - event B .75 1:10 40
event B - event C n/a 7:05 n/a
event C - event D 1.12 1:01 66
Misc.
The roadblock was inside the Malheur National Forest.
Based on online "street views" I believe the limit on US 395 is 55 mph.
Based on various National Highway Traffic Safety Administration publications, a
passenger vehicle traveling 60 mph requires 216 feet to stop. Of course this is
a generalized figure which does not take into account the combined mass of a
particular vehicle and its occupants or cargo. Total mass, vertical & horizontal
sight lines, driver reaction time, road conditions, etc. are all factors to take
into consideration.
Mostly agree. The GIN took what seven people in two cars into custody. One was reportedly injured, and they killed the guy who drove off from the stop, tried to run a roadblock, nearly killed a cop while driving around the roadblock.(It’s not a good roadblock, but he looked like he was going to ram it, and the cop was scrambling to get away). At th point he got out out of the truck, from the camera footage, I can’t tell what’s going on, but the rhetoric, the guns, and running would have made the cops very worried about this turning violent, and the guy was not unambiguously surrendering. He was a big part of making this more dangerous than it needed to be. I wish he didn’t get killed, but I’m glad it wasn’t worse.
These guy took over a federal office, and used guns and violent rhetoric to try and scare the police away. That’s a dangerous game. I the Bundy Ranch incident is about the only case of that actually working. Governments have a monopoly on the legitimacy use of force in their boarders. You challenge them at your perill. I agree that people in our government could respect member of the public more, and vice versa, but these guys brought themselves a lot of trouble, and proof that the feds weren’t there to execute those protesters is that all the leaders in the first truck were taken into custody unharmed.
LaVoy previously indicated he'd rather die than be locked up. I watched the video taken from a chopper a couple of times. Specifically focusing in on LaVoy.
It appears he chose suicide by cop. Knowing this was the end of the line. Two things were bout to happen. Either he would be handcuffed and taken to jail or he would die.
Any person that jumps from the vehicle as fast as LaVoy had, begin walking around with his hands up...then whirling around with his hand in his jacket is not thinking clearly...or was he? Depends whether he intended NOT to be taken in.
“Lack of government does not mean anarchy or chaos.”
I have re-read what Sundance wrote about the Left/Right spectrum of Freedom to try understand why that statement alone has aroused so much passionate disagreement. I, maybe through my ignorance of the latest labels for political extremes, have always assumed this paradigm to be correct: Tyrannical Dictatorship at the far Left and Anarchy at the far Right with the conclusion that neither extreme is good for civilization. Beyond that, I just assumed Sundance was trying to sort it out as to what was the goal of the occupation in the first place and where did it end up. Due to the many questions, it seemed that Sundance said this doesn’t look like it’s worth their time to pursue the story.
As the old white guys long ago said, our Constitutional Republic will only work as long as the people are morally good as defined by Christian principles and follow the law. How far away are we now from that? I agree with Jefferson: The government that governs least governs best. Only those laws that are truly needed to maintain order and Constitutional functions - get rid of the rest.
People who want to live in a cradle-to-grave socialist environment in America used to be able to move to the hyper-liberal states such as New York and Connecticut. Taxes are very high to support this demand. For years, the state govt.’s have run out of other people’s money, so lot of people have moved away for that reason alone - not because they particularly minded the Nanny state mentality. Then they moved to the more pleasant places and ruined those states with their hyper leftie laws -now there is nowhere to escape in this land of ours.
Jeff,
I agree with your assessment and must
say that Lavoy stepped into a place that most individuals
have no Idea of the consequences .
Lavoy was dancing in a mine field.
LEO’S have a tight script in a situation like this.
You are the voice of Reason ,
Thanks.
The way to change land usage is public support and opinion. A difficult road given the “environmental” dogma that seems to dominate the Inland Northwest at the ballot box.
Government is messy business. Land rights are messy business. At the end of the day I am pretty convinced having lived here for some time that little to nothing would change in the policies many dislike if the land was turned over to the states for management. In fact, I even believe (could be wrong) that there would be more restrictions in Oregon/Washington/California. Regardless, I still support more local and state control over the lands because that is my philosophy of government (bottom up).
I can’t really speak to the other Western states as I am not as familiar with their state politics. Would guess Idaho would be the only state that would likely see a decrease in regulation and restrictions on public land, but then again, the state of Idaho just voided long term leases to lake properties and auctioned them off screwing the people who owned them for a long time.
That was my point. It’s easy to demand or promote change, the problem is you must have an idea and workable concept of what comes next - an exit strategy if you will. The reality is our nation is hopelessly divided on a whole host of issues and land rights (not really on the radar of most Americans) is no different. Fair, right, wrong, or indifferent the fact is the “nation” purchased these lands long ago and these arguments have existed since then. I suppose Great Grandpa Bundy could have had a stand-off 70 years ago with the same arguments. Nothing has changed and nothing will change as a result of this action.
Once again, what argument does the man in the video I posted above (he is still there) make? I have posted it repeatedly without a single comment or defense of him posted by those who support this action. That is the problem with “extreme action” - you can’t control who responds and now there are four occupiers left with an even more confusing message.
You can justify the actions of agents of state tyranny until you turn blue in the face.
NONE of this would have ever happened had the Federal Beast been adhering to it’s limits within the bounds of the Constitution. An innocent family would not be imprisoned for doing what was necessary on their own land to protect their home.
I guess we are witnessing just more of what Jefferson wrote when he said all experience has shown that men are disposed to suffer evil, while evils are sufferable rather than abolish the forms to which they have become accustomed.
And it is become self-evident that this people are become accustomed to tyranny and justify the actions of tyrants and their agents ad nauseum.
You are not alone. I’m glad one other person sees the parallels. thanks for speaking up.
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