Posted on 06/04/2016 8:42:53 AM PDT by KeyLargo
I was heading north on Virgil coming up on Sunset when I noticed the pulled-over Rolls with Ali talking to a bunch of kids. I waved and yelled “Hey, Champ”, as I drove by. I couldn’t understand what he replied. But it appeared to have rallied the kids even more.
Ali denounced Farrakhan and his group over 30 years ago..........
Hindsight is 20/20. You need to understand the context of our intervention in Vietnam. The Cold War was at its highest. We had over 500,000 military in Europe to prevent a Soviet invasion. We had the Cuban missile crisis that involved the Soviets trying to place ICBMs there. The Berlin Wall was built in 1961. The Soviets were in the ME in Iraq and Egypt. The Tudeh party was active in Iran with the Soviets wanting more influence in the region. We had fought a war in Korea to contain the Communists. The PRC was becoming more of a threat in Asia. Our allies like Japan and the Philippines were concerned about the threat. Indonesia and Malaysia faced communist insurgencies.
We assisted South Vietnam, which was being invaded by North Vietnam along with its communist surrogates, the Viet Cong, as part of our containment strategy against Communism We feared that Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand would fall.
We won the war in Vietnam and lost the peace. The millions of South Vietnamese who lost their lives, fled as boat people to freedom, and those left behind who were placed in reeducation camps were casualties of the war, and would have been even if we had not been involved. South Vietnam fought on for two years after we left. The Dem controlled Congress cut off funding and military assistance to the South. And we did nothing when the North Vietnam violated the Truce agreement and invaded the South en masse to take it over.
How old are you? I served a year in Danang (including during the Tet Offensive) and 10 months off the coast on an LPH. I don't regret my service, but I despise the politicians who wasted the sacrifice of those who served. The NVA and the VC never defeated us in any significant battle. And Tet was a huge loss for them, but the MSM portrayed it differently.
Our containment strategy first articulated by George Kennan in his Long Telegram in 1946 worked in the long term and resulted in the eventual downfall of the Soviet Union. Our involvement in Vietnam played a part in demonstrating our commitment in blood and treasure to stopping the march of communism.
No Boat People, no mass extermination.
A free and independent South Vietnam.
That's what would have been different.
I am 56 if that matters. Get over his opposition to the Vietnam war and his refusal to participate. Consider this, he faced it directly, was tried and convicted. Can’t say the same for the others who found excuse after excuse to avoid the draft or, like Bush and Gore, got sweet duty because of family.
Funny you bring up Kennan, he was critical of our involvement in Vietnam stating it was of little strategic interest to us.
Hey, you forgot to mention the Bill Clinton story.
Eh, I think you should know that “the boat people” are today’s Republican voters in California.
LOL!!
was respectful
****
You mean when he called Joe Frazier a gorilla?
In Northern Virginia in my area the “boat people,” Korans, and other Orientals were strong for Obama.
For what it’s worth, I recall that Clay WAS called before the draft board and was judged unfit due to his being functionally illiterate. When he became known and started shooting off his mouth the draft board re-rated him Fit. It’s been a long time but that is the way I recall it.
So was I. And I recall that Ali was not perceived as some great civil rights leader.
Ali joining the Black Muslims had everything to do with race and in the south they had every right to hate whites.........
Ali joined the Nation of Islam to avoid the draft. So hating whites is the justification for joining a black racist organization? I guess you can use the same rationale for whites joining the KKK. FYI: Racism in the US was not confined to the South.
To be honest with you, I'm surprised that any blacks from the racially segregated south responded to their draft notices........
I would be surprised if they did not respond. You demean blacks by questioning their patriotism. There are plenty of people in this country who have grievances, perceived or otherwise. They don't use that as an excuse to avoid serving in time of war. At the time, Vietnam was called the "the White Man's War" by some. The CPUSA used the kind of logic and language you are using to convince blacks not to join the military.
Blacks were drafted into a segregated military in WWII. Many volunteered. When Truman integrated the military, there was no better institution that treated people fairly based on merit than the armed forces.
Sorry but I don't share any of Brunos views except maybe the womanizing and that I could not care less.
Bruno just provided the facts, as inconvenient as they might seem to some. Ali had feet of clay, pun intended. He was flawed in many ways. The Left has lionized him due to his refusal to enter the military during the Vietnam conflict. He also enabled those who got college deferments or did not serve to get on their moral high horse. I can only listen with amusement as I hear the excuses people of that era use to explain how they avoided serving. It reminds me of Patton's speech to the Third Army:
Then there's one thing you men will be able to say when this war is over and you get back home. Thirty years from now when you're sitting by your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks, 'What did you do in the great World War Two?' You won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana.' No sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say 'Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and a son-of-a-goddamned-bitch named George Patton!'
I served in Vietnam and am proud of it. Ali was a great prize fighter. End of story.
Trust me; it happens.
1973
January 8, 1973 - Kissinger and Le Duc Tho resume negotiations in Paris.
January 9, 1973 - All remaining differences are resolved between Kissinger and Le Duc Tho.
President Thieu, once again threatened by Nixon with a total cut-off of American aid to South Vietnam, now unwillingly accepts the peace agreement, which still allows North Vietnamese troops to remain in South Vietnam. Thieu labels the terms "tantamount to surrender" for South Vietnam.
January 23, 1973 - President Nixon announces that an agreement has been reached which will "end the war and bring peace with honor."
January 27, 1973 - The Paris Peace Accords are signed by the U.S., North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the Viet Cong. Under the terms, the U.S. agrees to immediately halt all military activities and withdraw all remaining military personnel within 60 days. The North Vietnamese agree to an immediate cease-fire and the release of all American POWs within 60 days. An estimated 150,000 North Vietnamese soldiers presently in South Vietnam are allowed to remain. Vietnam is still divided. South Vietnam is considered to be one country with two governments, one led by President Thieu, the other led by Viet Cong, pending future reconciliation.
January 27, 1973 - Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird announces the draft is ended in favor of voluntary enlistment.
January 27, 1973 - The last American soldier to die in combat in Vietnam, Lt. Col. William B. Nolde, is killed.
February 12, 1973 - Operation Homecoming begins the release of 591 American POWs from Hanoi.
March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."
America's longest war, and its first defeat, thus concludes. During 15 years of military involvement, over 2 million Americans served in Vietnam with 500,000 seeing actual combat. 47,244 were killed in action, including 8000 airmen. There were 10,446 non-combat deaths. 153,329 were seriously wounded, including 10,000 amputees. Over 2400 American POWs/MIAs were unaccounted for as of 1973.
Didn't matter, North Vietnam just waited a little over a year and invaded in 74' and the ARVN cut and ran with South Vietnam being completely overrun by April 75'.
You left out one important detail: By invading, North Vietnam violated the Peace Agreement. The ARVN didn't cut and run. They fought alone for more than two years. We cut off all support and failed to enforce the Paris Accords. In the meantime the Soviets and the Chinese were supplying the NVA and the Viet Cong. We strangled the ARVN and ensured they did not have the means to fight back.
April 1973 - President Nixon and President Thieu meet at San Clemente, California. Nixon renews his earlier secret pledge to respond militarily if North Vietnam violates the peace agreement.
June 19, 1973 - The U.S. Congress passes the Case-Church Amendment which forbids any further U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia, effective August 15, 1973. The veto-proof vote is 278-124 in the House and 64-26 in the Senate.
The Amendment paves the way for North Vietnam to wage yet another invasion of the South, this time without fear of U.S. bombing.
June 24, 1973 - Graham Martin becomes the new U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam.
July 1973 - The U.S. Navy removes mines from ports in North Vietnam which had been installed during Operation Linebacker.
July 16, 1973 - The U.S. Senate Armed Forces Committee begins hearings into the secret bombing of Cambodia during 1969-70.
July 17, 1973 - Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger testifies before the Armed Forces Committee that 3500 bombing raids were launched into Cambodia to protect American troops by targeting NVA positions. The extent of Nixon's secret bombing campaign angers many in Congress and results in the first call for Nixon's impeachment.
August 14, 1973 - U.S. bombing activities in Cambodia are halted in accordance with the Congressional ban resulting from the Case-Church amendment.
August 22, 1973 - Henry Kissinger is appointed by President Nixon as the new Secretary of State, replacing William Rogers.
September 22, 1973 - South Vietnamese troops assault NVA near Pleiku.
1974
May 9, 1974 - Congress begins impeachment proceedings against President Nixon stemming from the Watergate scandal.
August 9, 1974 - Richard M. Nixon resigns the presidency as result of Watergate. Gerald R. Ford is sworn in as the 38th U.S. President, becoming the 6th President coping with Vietnam.
September 1974 - The U.S. Congress appropriates only $700 million for South Vietnam. This leaves the South Vietnamese Army under-funded and results in a decline of military readiness and morale.
September 16, 1974 - President Gerald R. Ford announces a clemency program for draft evaders and military deserters. The program runs through March 31, 1975, and requires fugitives to take an oath of allegiance and also perform up to two years of community service. Out of an estimated 124,000 men eligible, about 22,500 take advantage of the offer.
October - The Politburo in North Vietnam decides to launch an invasion of South Vietnam in 1975.
November 19, 1974 - William Calley is freed after serving 3 1/2 years under house arrest following his conviction for the murder of 22 My Lai civilians.
December 13, 1974 - North Vietnam violates the Paris peace treaty and tests President Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long Province in South Vietnam. President Ford responds with diplomatic protests but no military force in compliance with the Congressional ban on all U.S. military activity in Southeast Asia.
December 18, 1974 - North Vietnam's leaders meet in Hanoi to form a plan for final victory.
1975
January 8, 1975 - NVA general staff plan for the invasion of South Vietnam by 20 divisions is approved by North Vietnam's Politburo. By now, the Soviet-supplied North Vietnamese Army is the fifth largest in the world. It anticipates a two year struggle for victory. But in reality, South Vietnam's forces will collapse in only 55 days.
January 14, 1975 - Testifying before Congress, Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger states that the U.S. is not living up to its earlier promise to South Vietnam's President Thieu of "severe retaliatory action" in the event North Vietnam violated the Paris peace treaty.
January 21, 1975 - During a press conference, President Ford states the U.S. is unwilling to re-enter the war.
February 5, 1975 - NVA military leader General Van Tien Dung secretly crosses into South Vietnam to take command of the final offensive.
March 10, 1975 - The final offensive begins as 25,000 NVA attack Ban Me Thuot located in the Central Highlands.
March 11, 1975 - Ban Me Thuot falls after half of the 4000 South Vietnamese soldiers defending it surrender or desert.
March 13, 1975 - President Thieu decides to abandon the Highlands region and two northern provinces to the NVA. This results in a mass exodus of civilians and soldiers, clogging roads and bringing general chaos. NVA then shell the disorganized retreat which becomes known as "the convoy of tears."
March 18, 1975 - Realizing the South Vietnamese Army is nearing collapse, NVA leaders meet and decide to accelerate their offensive to achieve total victory before May 1.
March 19, 1975 - Quang Tri City falls to NVA.
March 24, 1975 - Tam Ky over-run by NVA.
March 25, 1975 - Hue falls without resistance after a three day siege. South Vietnamese troops now break and run from other threatened areas. Millions of refugees flee south.
March 26, 1975 - Chu Lai is evacuated.
March 28, 1975 - Da Nang is shelled as 35,000 NVA prepare to attack.
March 30, 1975 - Da Nang falls as 100,000 South Vietnamese soldiers surrender after being abandoned by their commanding officers.
March 31, 1975 - NVA begin the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign,' the final push toward Saigon.
April 9, 1975 - NVA close in on Xuan Loc, 38 miles from Saigon. 40,000 NVA attack the city and for the first time encounter stiff resistance from South Vietnamese troops.
April 20, 1975 - U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin meets with President Thieu and pressures him to resign given the gravity of the situation and the unlikelihood that Thieu could ever negotiate with the Communists.
April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.
April 22, 1975 - Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.
April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war that is finished as far as America is concerned."
April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.
April 28, 1975 - 'Neutralist' General Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His appeal is ignored.
April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.
At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the compound.
Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into the sea becomes an enduring image of the war's end.
April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.
Didn't matter what our goofy celebrities did, North Vietnam was more determined to unite the country than we were to send our teenagers to die and try to stop it.
You mean like North Korea tried to "unite the country" in 1950? Or Iraq did with Kuwait? The North invaded a sovereign country and seized it.
AKA I'm a racist???? That was a clever subtle inference...........
Sorry bro but I don't share the same hatred of the blacks who became militant due to the racism they experienced while living in the south.........
And you also appear to be ignorant of the fact that Ali, after winning a gold medal in the 1960 Olympics still incurred the racism in the south by being denied service in a restaurant because he was black and subsequently threw his medal into the Ohio river.
He took a stand against the Vietnam war, stayed home and was banned from boxing for 4 years . I get it and I accept it.........He's more than paid for his decision both during and after his boxing career with all the humanitarian causes he has supported. A hell of a lot more than you or I combined have done.
So don't shove your moral superiority in my face simply because your are a Vietnam vet, because I served too.........
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
I didn't say that, you must have responded to the wrong poster.......
Ali had the conviction overturned. He joined the racist Nation of Islam to avoid service. It was his excuse. I am not excusing those who avoided service thru deferments or other means. At least Bush and Gore served in the military and Gore did go to Vietnam.
Kennan was a bright man whose opinions I respect. Once the decision was made to assist the South Vietnamese, the die was cast. As a citizen, you don’t get to choose the wars you will or will not participate in. You get drafted or volunteer. I volunteered.
Superman is about 350 milliseconds from being flattened by Ali.
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