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To: Eagles Talon IV
Can they actually be so inherently vicious or is it that the people who are attracted to these dogs are the kind that turn a dog vicious.

I think that the problem is two-pronged--part nature, part nurture. As a way to look at temperament broadly, do a google search on the temperament of the German Shepherd Dog. You will find that certain "lines" (DDR, Czech working, West German, American show, etc.) are considered to be either softer or more working type/tougher depending on their country of origin.

In my own breed, a herding/guard dog, some individual US breeders breed a tougher, working type dog and others prefer to breed a softer, family version. American-bred dogs of my breed tend to be softer than their Euro counterparts. As I have no sheep to herd on my 1/2 acre plot in suburbia, have lots of kids and dogs nearby, and little need for a "guard" dog (although I like a watch dog), I prefer a softer, dog.

I think that the *overall* temperament of the "pit bull" has deteriorated over the last couple of decades as it has become the dog of choice for drug dealers and others who desire an aggressive dog. That is not to say that the pit bull is an "inherently" aggressive breed. If one looks at the "pit bull" of the past, it was considered a much-beloved family pet.

However, if someone wants to breed an aggressive dog, all he has to do is take the most aggressive, hair-trigger dog from a litter *of any breed*, breed it, and then take the most vicious dog from that litter and breed it and so on and so on until, several generations out, the "breeder" is going to have a bunch of unstable, vicious nuts.

I have seen well-bred and well-trained pit bull-type dogs that were a credit to their breed. I once saw an Am Staff run a standard excellent agility course and it was inspiring--the dog was a marvel of supple power and drive. When he was done, his "mom" whipped out a chew toy and dog settled down nicely. Meanwhile, about 50 feet away, a border collie was going after another dog as the two dogs were taking turns on the practice jump.

I have seen plenty of Am Staffs and other large terriers hanging out around conformation rings with nary a snark. In the right hands, a well-bred "pit bull" can be a great family or perfomance dog.

In my own neighborhood, when I walk my dog *on a lead,* we have been chased by a supervised cocker, an unsupervised doxie (who was hell-bent on biting my ankle), and a black lab mix whose kids can't seem to keep him behind the screen door.

Our one encounter with a "pit bull" had my heart momentarily in my throat. My intact boy was about 16 months old and we were walking down the sidewalk, approaching a driveway. There was a truck parked in the driveway, and once we passed the bed of the truck, I caught a "pit bull" taking a few steps toward us, alert. His owner was on a cell phone beside the truck, looked up and told the dog sit/stay. Dog sat and stayed. I wanted to go give that guy a hug!

Believe me, when pit bulls are no longer welcomed in communties, drug dealers and other thugs will look to Black Russian Terriers, Presa Canario, bouviers, or something else. I imagine it's not too hard to make a dog of just about any breed vicious by beating and baiting it to no end...

(The other issue is the AKC, papers, breeding requirements/regulating, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)

My2cents,

Missy

21 posted on 11/06/2005 5:56:42 PM PST by missycocopuffs (When did we start using tag lines?)
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To: missycocopuffs; calex59
However, if someone wants to breed an aggressive dog, all he has to do is take the most aggressive, hair-trigger dog from a litter *of any breed*, breed it, and then take the most vicious dog from that litter and breed it and so on and so on until, several generations out, the "breeder" is going to have a bunch of unstable, vicious nuts.

See my post 12 . . . "Give a gangsta a couple of goofy old lovable Golden Retrievers and 8-10 generations and he could breed and train Killer Goldens."

I know a couple of Goldens who would be good candidates for such a breeding program . . . they are field Goldens, the "little red dogs", and they generally are a lot sharper and more prey-driven than the average big lazy lunk of a house pet Golden. They need that drive and aggressiveness to perform in field trials, especially since they're competing with the Labs who are much faster, especially in the water. But some of them have it to a degree that makes them aggressive towards other dogs and humans, and if you were to breed exclusively for the aggressiveness, you could get some VERY mean Goldens in a few generations.

Same thing goes with the German Shepherds - the ones bred for schützen are much "sharper" than the American show variety.

So by choosing the parents, you could make almost any breed inherently vicious.

24 posted on 11/06/2005 7:02:06 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: missycocopuffs

Thank you for the information.


28 posted on 11/07/2005 5:48:55 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV (Still waiting for the)
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To: missycocopuffs
Forgot the "Old Home Week" question last night . . .

I thought I might have seen you around the agility trials -- since there's a lady here with three Bernese Mountain Dogs -- but I see you live in Michigan. Which association do you run, and what kind of dogs do you have?

My little Lab is OA, NAJ in AKC and has her Agility Dog title in USDAA . . . she loves agility almost as much as she loves chasing ducks.


The trial season is just getting cranked back up here (it's too hot to run until late October/early November) and we're hoping to finish up her Open jumpers title and work our way through the next level of USDAA this season.

29 posted on 11/07/2005 5:54:27 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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