Posted on 09/01/2009 4:56:09 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
Great observation. No pontificating back then. Just reporting.
I was always fascinated by this assertion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Schleswig-Holstein
The Schleswig-Holstein was a German battleship that fought in both World Wars. It is said to have fired the first shots of World War II by firing at the Polish base at Westerplatte on 1 September 1939.
snip
Though obsolete by the outbreak of World War II she took part in some operations. At the end of August 1939, Schleswig-Holstein sailed to Danzig, under the pretext of a courtesy visit, and anchored in the channel near Westerplatte. On 1 September 1939, at 4.45 a.m. she began to fire 280mm and 170mm shells at the Polish garrison there.[1]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8225093.stm
Watching the start of World War II
That was supposed to be different paragraphs put together from different sources, but for some reason, it didn’t format right!
One of the German Commanders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Group_South
Poland campaign
Germany used two army groups to invade Poland in 1939: Army Group North and Army Group South. In this campaign Army Group South was led by Gerd von Rundstedt and his chief of staff Erich von Manstein.
Cougar, I can’t remember which German mentioned this in his memoirs, but he said that when war came, in his opinion “only the infantry was ready to fight.” Your points about the inadequacies of the Panzerwaffe were shared by it’s commanders. The victory over Poland was as much a victory by the initiative and aggression of small unit leaders throughout the infantry arm as it was with the Panzers and the Luftwaffe.
The Poles were really no match for the Germans. The Germans had EVERY advantage. The Germans had the better strategic and operational positions. The Germans had the Poles outnumbered. The Germans were fully mobilized and deployed, the Poles had only just begun full mobilization. The Germans had a large industrial base to rely upon if the war went on, the Poles had no means of replacing lost weapons or re-supplying their troops in any quantity. The Luftwaffe and German panzers were technologically and numerically far superior to the Polish equivalents. The German officer and NCO corps were vastly superior. I could go on but why bother?
Schleswig-Holstein was actually obsolete when she fought at Jutland in 1916. She was an old pre-dreadnought battleship without speed, armor or armament sufficient to stand in the battle line in WW1. However, Speer took her and five sisters along anyway. The German crews called them “five minute ships” because they figured that’s how long they’d last.
The real “value” ships were the Queen Elizabeth class. Four of them fought at Jutland in the 5th Battle Squadron, but were still considered first-line battleships through much of WW2.
I meant “Scheer” not “Speer.” Sorry. I had a typing fit.
I want to say it was Admiral Erich Raeder that felt his fleet wasn’t quite ready, but I could be wrong.
Also much overlooked by Historians and amateurs alike is that Polands operational control of its fielded units lasted about 48-72 hours.
After that, it was a game of moving around chips on map representing units that no longer existed, or couldnt fight.
Local and area commanders did a good job of controlling their units, but even that broke down after a week.
The Germans had good and current intelligence on what and where the Poles were, via air, a good network of spies and Special Forces, and even the local ethnic German population, which had been handled roughly by the Polish dictatorship.
Rather than crediting the SMS Schleswig-Holstein with firing the first shots of WWII, I think a good argument could be made that this incident was the first.
http://www.muzeum.gliwice.pl/en/radiostacja/
Gliwice Radio Station
The radio station was a scene of murder of Franciszek Honiok, a Polish Silesian, presently believed to have been the first victim of the World War II. Honiok was brought here by a Gestapo group as a “tin can”. He was supposed to be a proof of the “Polish guilt”. The next day Hitler gave a speech in which he justified the outbreak of war with border provocations, allegedly performed by the Poles. The truth about the Gliwice provocation was discovered as late as during the Nurnberg trial.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090831/155972036.html
Provocation in Gliwice in 1939: “Grandma is dead”
Interesting to see Daladier conferring with his chief general, Gamelin. In the next year the chief responsibility for the defense of western civilization would be in Gamelin’s hands, and Gamelin was well prepared to fight a World War. Unfortunately for the West it was World War I that Gamelin was prepared to fight!
There is a degree of truth to this point. Keep in mind that at this point the best tank in the German army is the Panzer IV and there are not that many of them. The bulk of armor is the Panzer II with a small 2 cm gun and the Panzer I which only had twin machine guns. But that was still more than enough for the Polish equipment and training.”
Unfortunately the Poles had Tankettes (yes that really is a term) deployed to fight German tanks.
Some time this week, I’m going to try to post some armor comparisons on the tanks of the 1939 campaign. It’s not exact, I’m going to pull the stats from the “Command Decision 3” World War II miniatures rules, but it will provide relative comparisons in an easy to understand format.
Ain't that the truth!
True, but you wont be seeing it yet. Poland really was not Blitzkrieg at all. The Panzer units were not organized into standalone divisions and were still integrated with the infantry. Combat air support was very low on the Luftwaffe order of battle, and a little known aspect of blitzkrieg, use of airborne units didn't really happen at all with the exception of a select few who were dropped behind the lines to disrupt communications.
I tried my level best to read yesterdays paper as if it was the first time I heard of these events. Trying to capture the sense of what the average American would have thought that day. (Pretty much impossible to do).
My feeling was if these events were all new to me I would be almost morbidly fascinated but truly unaware as to the scope or significance of these events. I’m betting that this curiosity will turn into concern by the end of the week when it is clear that Poland is SOL and the western powers have declared war. One of the things that makes capturing history difficult is that the people experiencing the history first hand often don’t recognize the significance of the historic even happening around them.
Maybe. I don’t recognize the voice either. It can be hard with old audio though. If you listen to Hitler’s voice in the CBS report and then listen to the raw feed without translation they sound like two totally different people.
I agree. In the case of Poland, the Germans were far superior in every aspect including having created a natural salient around all of Poland that allotted them the luxury of creating a double pincher maneuver (the second pincher they didn’t even really need in the end).
France was a different story and was a testament to the superiority of the young German generals more than equipment or numbers.
Perhaps, but from the Polish POV it was blitzkrieg nonetheless. Their world was turned upside down in an instant and their nation was under Nazi control within two weeks. Compared to the most recent protracted trench warfare conflict of WWI that must have seemed like the blinking of an eye. Certainly, from the Germans perspective, the seeds of three dimensional combined arms blitzkrieg were set in motion in Poland.
In all honesty blitzkrieg was more a propaganda tool than anything that was practiced in reality. One thing for certain though was that the Germans were innovative enough with their tactical pursuits (blitzschlag?) to easily overwehlm the Polish army and even the superior (in numbers and equipment) French army and BEF.
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