Posted on 12/15/2009 11:16:26 PM PST by Swordmaker
So, we should submit to evil doers and the Founders sinned. I see.
You'll note that you said, up above, prior to that ...
Paul presumes the “rulers” are forces of good there. Not doers of evil themselves.
And that's where you're wrong... as you can see what Paul says here... For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Again, "there is no authority except from God" -- and -- "the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
That complete and all inclusive. That's what God says... If you don't like what God says, you can take it up with Him as I don't have anything to do with how that came out... LOL...
Interestingly enough, the Sheep and the Goat parable you quote is often used to disprove dispensationalism and the 1830’s era millennial movement to which you belong.
More like someone doesn't like what they hear about Jesus coming back, separating out the nations into the Sheep and Goat judgment, casting those of the "goat judgement" into outer darkness and those of the sheep, going into the kingdom.
Sorry, that's what God says, but it's not new that many don't like what God says, but that's not my business if they don't like it. I only care that He said what He did, and that's good enough for me... :-)
And that's exactly the same understanding as you'll get from Charles Ryrie and John Walvoord, both of Dallas Theological Seminary (for just two to start with) along with a whole host of others... some of which I have the names... :-)
Here's a sampling of some prominent names in Christian circles, but, by no means all of them (just a sample for you, right now...).
And that's only to say, that studied and scholarly men of God, with degrees from various seminaries, have seen that the Bible says the same thing as I've just related to you about the Kingdom of God.
Now..., there's absolutely no reason you have to accept it for yourself, but that doesn't mean, because you don't accept it, that this is not what the Bible says. Too many scholars and theologians have already spoken on the issue... LOL...
And besides that, I don't even need one of those scholar men and pastors and preachers to tell me that this is what the Bible says, because I also read it in the Word of God... so that's clear for anyone who "has an ear to hear"... as Jesus says.
Jesus says several times and in many places that "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." [Rev 2:7]; "If anyone has an ear, let him hear." [Rev 13:9] ... of course, the opposite is that those who don't have an ear, won't hear... :-)
Not everyone wants to "hear"...
So, Heaven has a bureaucracy?
Well, it always pays to make sure that we're understanding the word that someone is using, so I go to one place to get the definition (at least one definition, as words sometimes have multiple definitions).
At Princeton University WordNet the definition of bureaucracy is "nonelective government officials"...
And so, you're right, there will be "nonelective government officials" appointed by the King of Kings, the ruler of the nations, the one who controls the one-world government on earth -- namely by Jesus, the Messiah of Israel...
Yes, indeed...
“Well, it always pays to make sure that we’re understanding the word that someone is using, so I go to one place to get the definition (at least one definition, as words sometimes have multiple definitions).”
It also pays to understand when someone is responding to your derision in kind.
So (I'll ask again) do you believe this to mean that the Founders were wrong and there is a divine right of kings? Remember that Paul's Epistles were LETTERS to specific churches....
Paul does say that to all Christians, but he is writing by the direct authority of God, under God's direct guidance, and saying exactly what God would have him say. So, we use the terminology that "Paul wrote" because he was the human agency involved, but it was God's Word that was being written.
So, what can be said about that is that God says that there is no authority except from Him, and the authorities that exist are appointed by Him. And God tells all Christians how to respond to them.
We have the examples of the Apostles when authorities tried to get them to disobey God in place of the authorities. On those matters, they said they would obey God and not them. It's only in that kind of situation that I see that any of them disobeyed the authorities, because God commanded differently.
If our local authorities said to stop all proclaiming of the Gospel and it's now illegal -- then we would have to disobey the authorities (as Christians) because God commands differently.
But, if it's not a matter where God did command differently and/or they're not violating some direct scripture to the contrary, then we are to obey the authorities. That's pretty clear. Whether you like it or not is another story.
On the matter of going to war (like in the colonies and in our history), that's yet again, another story, too. If you are part of a government that orders you to war (say like the draft, for example) and it's a matter of national defense, that does come under following the authority of the local government, unless you somehow see something there that is in direct violation of God's command. But, when it comes to "national defense" a good case is made for that, on Biblical terms and under the authority of God.
In terms of the colonies, that would be something that each person would have to determine for themselves, as to whether they were following the local authorities in defending their homeland and if they considered their allegiance to the colony as primary or the allegiance to the King as primary. The colonies did consider themselves to be sovereign states, as I understand it. So, it does comes down to the individual and what he sees that the Bible makes clear about the subject.
But, as for me, right now -- this is where I live and this is the government that I have, and as God has made clear -- He is the One who has installed them in place. And those laws, regulations, judges, government, etc. are to be followed and obeyed. It doesn't mean that I cannot work to change things, but as they are, then I am supposed to follow them.
This sounds very explicit and clear to me and to anyone else who reads it. People may not like what they read and they may personally disagree with it, but that's just what God says...
Romans Chapter 13 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
More like someone understands that "nations", in this case, refers to "the peoples of the Earth" as in ethnos, not modern nation states. The outer darkness is Hell and the Kingdom referenced is Heaven. You speak of Judgement Day, not the inauguration of a theological government.
Well, I read the following (as you brought it up before) and it sounds pretty clear to me. He's coming to His throne. It's already told to us that He'll be on the throne of David, so we know that. That's King David's earthly throne.
The Jews knew what Jesus was talking about in coming in His glory, to His throne, and judging the nations. It was all very familiar and quite understandable to them. They knew that the Messiah was coming to set up the Kingdom and that He would rule over all the nations.
That's the Kingdom mentioned further on down that was "prepared from the foundation of the world"...
And one group goes into everlasting punishment while the other goes to eternal life.
It's all really clear and understandable to me. I don't know why it's not understandable to you... :-)
Matthew Chapter 25 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
There you go again... with your appeals to authority. "Learned men" disagree about a whole host of things in the Bible.
Well, heck! There you go again... LOL... Just when I think you're reading something, you start not reading again. :-)
You'll note that I said the following...
And that's only to say, that studied and scholarly men of God, with degrees from various seminaries, have seen that the Bible says the same thing as I've just related to you about the Kingdom of God.
There are plenty of people who come up with things that are so outlandish and crazy that no one else on this earth could ever come up with it... LOL...
But, when you have something that you read and see that it's says a certain thing and you say "this is what it says" -- and you find that others have read that exact same thing -- then you know you're not coming up with something outlandish and so stupid that not a single other person in the world could ever come up with it...
That's the point to that. It's not a "private interpretation" that exist nowhere else. In fact, it's a "studied" understanding and one that others have worked for decade upon decade to arrive at. That, by itself is significant.
Then the next thing you seem to have failed to read, once again...
And besides that, I don't even need one of those scholar men and pastors and preachers to tell me that this is what the Bible says, because I also read it in the Word of God... so that's clear for anyone who "has an ear to hear"... as Jesus says.
I say that I don't even have to have any studied men or scholars or pastors or teachers explain it -- because as I read it, it's so plain and clear that I come up with the same thing all on my own... LOL...
But, of course, when someone says that, the next comeback to that (from someone opposing) is "Why does it make any difference if it's just you that says that?"
And then if someone mentions all the studied and scholarly men that say the same thing, then the comeback is "Why should I pay attention to the scholars when I get other scholars saying differently?"
For that kind of person, I've got to feel real sorry for -- because then I know that they can never understand or comprehend anything because if one person says something, why should they listen. If a bunch of scholars say something, no big deal because they can find a bunch of scholars to say something different... LOL..
With that kind of thinking -- that you obviously have, it's suprising that you're able to get out of bed and do anything or accomplish anything in real life... :-)
That's why Jesus said to those who would listen to Him and God's word "if they have ears to hear"...
I see we are back to derisive laughter. You believe what you have been *told*.
I'm derisively laughing because I don't know how someone gets by in life with the type of thinking that you exhibit... LOL..
And, I just got through telling you how I think about it, which is what I can plainly read. But, then again, you don't like what I can plainly read... :-)
Indeed. You certainly don't. If you should strive to try to convince someone your personal view of the Bible was the correct one, I'd suggest dropping the derisive and insulting attitude.
Like Jesus says, "if you have ears to hear" and He says it plainly enough about Him coming in His Kingdom here on earth and what He's going to do with the Sheep and Goat judgement, so that if you can't understand it, then it's on "your ears" and not mine... LOL...
I laugh all the time, because these things are so hilarious and unbelievable that some people actually attempt to live their lives this way... :-)
It also pays to understand when someone is responding to your derision in kind.
I just wanted to be sure you did understand that there was a bureaucracy of government there. That's a good understanding of it and it's good to know that. I'm glad you mentioned it.
This is the real earth that the Kingdom is on. There are real people there, living normal lives, having families, building houses and working and so on. It takes governing and it takes a bureaucracy -- because that's "reality" and the Kingdom that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel has on this earth is "reality" -- just as much as we see now -- when we refer to the laws that we live under, to the governing officials that we refer to and how we make a living.
That will all be going on in the Kingdom, here on earth.... all very real stuff.
“In terms of the colonies, that would be something that each person would have to determine for themselves, as to whether they were following the local authorities in defending their homeland and if they considered their allegiance to the colony as primary or the allegiance to the King as primary. The colonies did consider themselves to be sovereign states, as I understand it. So, it does comes down to the individual and what he sees that the Bible makes clear about the subject.”
The colonies were not sovereign by any means. The colonists wanted their rights - as THEY saw them - as Englishmen. The legitimate government objected. That was a REBELLION against LEGITIMATE authority. They were also right.
“But, as for me, right now — this is where I live and this is the government that I have, and as God has made clear — He is the One who has installed them in place. And those laws, regulations, judges, government, etc. are to be followed and obeyed. It doesn’t mean that I cannot work to change things, but as they are, then I am supposed to follow them.”
So... let’s see.... illegal laws against the Constitution are to be obeyed? Jefferson was wrong? I’m just trying to feel out your somewhat odd worldview... that we should somehow submit to every indignity and transgression. That we should be happy in our chains. What kind of American are you? No Christian American I’ve ever encountered would countenance this worldview!
Romans 13 cannot be separated from historical context (avoiding trouble with Rome) and I really think you are missing Paul’s larger point. Rulers can be a “terror to good works”. Governments and order should be followed when they are NOT a terror to good works. Otherwise, their authority is not from God and we are under no obligation to obey them. Paul himself was imprisoned frequently for refusing to submit to civil authority. Human authority is LIMITED. If you view Romans 13 as a command to submit to any and all civil authority, then you’ve missed the point.
“Well, I read the following (as you brought it up before) and it sounds pretty clear to me. He’s coming to His throne. It’s already told to us that He’ll be on the throne of David, so we know that. That’s King David’s earthly throne.”
His throne in Heaven. The parable is talking about Judgment Day. You are following the “Left Behind” theology.
” But, when you have something that you read and see that it’s says a certain thing and you say “this is what it says” — and you find that others have read that exact same thing — then you know you’re not coming up with something outlandish and so stupid that not a single other person in the world could ever come up with it...
That’s the point to that. It’s not a “private interpretation” that exist nowhere else. In fact, it’s a “studied” understanding and one that others have worked for decade upon decade to arrive at. That, by itself is significant. “
Yet, many still disagree.... even people with the degrees in theology you uphold.
“I say that I don’t even have to have any studied men or scholars or pastors or teachers explain it — because as I read it, it’s so plain and clear that I come up with the same thing all on my own... LOL...”
Amusingly, not only do I read it differently, but so has every pastor I’ve spoken to on the subject.. Oh... I guess I should add an “LOL” to the end of that.
” I’m derisively laughing because I don’t know how someone gets by in life with the type of thinking that you exhibit... LOL..”
Ah, there’s the arrogance again. Are you a lawyer? It certainly makes you sound like one.
“And, I just got through telling you how I think about it, which is what I can plainly read. But, then again, you don’t like what I can plainly read... :-) “
I can plainly read and I read it differently. That’s something you can’t accept. That others might not agree that YOU “Star Traveler” are right in all things. Such hubris.
“Like Jesus says, “if you have ears to hear” and He says it plainly enough about Him coming in His Kingdom here on earth and what He’s going to do with the Sheep and Goat judgement, so that if you can’t understand it, then it’s on “your ears” and not mine... LOL...”
I can understand what He is saying perfectly well. You have your interpretation, I have mine. The “Sheep and Goat” judgment is Judgment Day, and the Kingdom of God mentioned is Heaven. It’s clear as day.
“I laugh all the time, because these things are so hilarious and unbelievable that some people actually attempt to live their lives this way... :-)”
More arrogant presumption. Typical.
“That will all be going on in the Kingdom, here on earth.... all very real stuff.”
Again, the Kingdom of God is in Heaven. Heaven is “reality”.
Again, the Kingdom of God is in Heaven. Heaven is “reality”.
Heaven is real, the earth is real, Jesus is real, people are real, as they live here on earth, and their departed souls are real as they reside elsewhere, and when they are resurrected they are just as real, and what Jesus said He was going to do when He returns is real, too...
That doesn't say too much... as they are all real... LOL...
Now that we know everything is "real" -- we can get down to the fact that when Jesus returns and He sets up the Kingdom here on earth, that will be real at that time, too... :-)
The legitimate government objected. That was a REBELLION against LEGITIMATE authority.
If someone came up to me today and said that I know this is not what the Bible says, but I want you to help me to rebel agains the legitimate authority of the government that we have today, I would have to say, "Sorry, I can't do that, according to what the Bible says."
I would say that I can work in the political system, I can lobby, I can vote, I can go through legal processes where necessary, I can talk to my representatives, I can talk to other people and organize -- but not any kind of armed rebellion... I would say no, because that's what the Bible says very clearly....
Romans Chapter 13 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
So... let’s see.... illegal laws against the Constitution are to be obeyed?
Well, there you go again... LOL...
Once again, you don't read and/or you simply don't remember what we already went through on this on the legal system before... :-)
As I said, as far as the legal system is concerned, once it's decided and it's been through the system, that's it. If you want to go through the other branches of government and get a different result, then that's fine, but you're going to have to convince a very large number of people in order to make any of those changes.
In the meantime, whatever the legal system say you "can do" is right, and whatever the legal system says you "cannot do" is wrong -- as far as that legal system is concerned.
And I've already covered the part about where if a law contradicts directly what God has told you specifically to do, then you are required to obey God first.
And if God tells you to obey the authorities, and it's not in one of those areas where God has already made clear what He expects directly of you -- then God has told you about what to do -- in Romans.
Romans 13 cannot be separated from historical context (avoiding trouble with Rome)...
It's God's Word and God is not afraid of Rome and neither is He afraid of any other entity in this universe. There's no problem with God being afraid of some entity and being "careful" because of this fear (or something like that...)... LOL...
His throne in Heaven. The parable is talking about Judgment Day. You are following the “Left Behind” theology.
Sorry, you've got that wrong. God's throne is in Heaven. The Throne of David refers to King David and it's an earthly throne and is on this earth. You're mixing up two different thrones... :-)
Yet, many still disagree.... even people with the degrees in theology you uphold.
Like I said, I feel sorry for someone who has to live life like you say and cannot see what is correct and what is not and can only say that they say this and over here they say that, and then over in this other corner they say something completely different -- so you can't say anything is right... LOL...
You sound like one of those liberal professors in college... :-)
Amusingly, not only do I read it differently, but so has every pastor I’ve spoken to on the subject..
Ahhh..., I see we're down to naming pastors and scholars and so on again... LOL...
But, but..., you remember you already told me that there are others who say this, who say that -- so how can you know anything... :-)
Isn't liberalism a bear...
Ah, there’s the arrogance again.
Well, what you call "arrogance" is someone who can actually "see something" -- as compared to you, who says, "I can't figure out anything, because he says that, and over there, they say this, and then someone else say that... and so on.... LOL...
It's no wonder you're confused...
I can plainly read and I read it differently.
Oh yes, I know that there are those who read it differently. It's kind of like what Satan said to Jesus in the wilderness... I guess Satan was reading the Bible differentlly too -- than Jesus... :-)
I can understand what He is saying perfectly well.
I think you understand perfectly well what you're saying but not what Jesus is saying... :-)
Matthew Chapter 6 9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
So, He says...
Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
Your kingdom come... huh? That means your kingdom come where -- well it says... "On earth as it is in heaven"
“I would say that I can work in the political system, I can lobby, I can vote, I can go through legal processes where necessary, I can talk to my representatives, I can talk to other people and organize — but not any kind of armed rebellion... I would say no, because that’s what the Bible says very clearly....”
If the government becomes a tyranny? You can’t hide behind Romans 13 to avoid your duty as a citizen, Star Traveler. Romans 13 doesn’t say you should submit to a tyrannical government. Paul didn’t, after all. He frequently disobeyed the government.
” In the meantime, whatever the legal system say you “can do” is right, and whatever the legal system says you “cannot do” is wrong — as far as that legal system is concerned.”
Ah, but as always, you are too dense to understand that there are larger issues than the legal system.
“And if God tells you to obey the authorities, and it’s not in one of those areas where God has already made clear what He expects directly of you — then God has told you about what to do — in Romans.”
Jesus didn’t “obey the authorities” and neither did his Apostles.
“It’s God’s Word and God is not afraid of Rome and neither is He afraid of any other entity in this universe. There’s no problem with God being afraid of some entity and being “careful” because of this fear (or something like that...)... LOL...”
Oh, come on. You can’t be that dense (actually, you can). Paul wasn’t talking about about God being “afraid of Rome”, but that His followers shouldn’t make legal trouble for themselves if they could avoid it without breaking God’s law. The other point of Romans 13 is that we should not obey the law only because of fear of temporal punishment, but because its the right thing to do - providing it doesn’t break God’s law. You really ought to read further, since you seem to think Romans 13 says you should submit to tyranny.
“Isn’t liberalism a bear... “
You tell me.
“Well, what you call “arrogance” is someone who can actually “see something” — as compared to you, who says, “I can’t figure out anything, because he says that, and over there, they say this, and then someone else say that... and so on.... LOL...”
The New Testament is clear. You dispensationalists are wrong. You are free to disagree, but do not presume in your smugness that I am a fool because I don’t agree with you. I can read the Bible for myself. I do not agree with your personal interpretation of it.
“I think you understand perfectly well what you’re saying but not what Jesus is saying... :-)”
I understand Him. You do not speak for Him.
I’m done with you. You are very nearly the most arrogant person I’ve ever encountered... and I’ve met my share. You can’t even read the clear text of the Bible and sneer at anyone who doesn’t agree with your particular, and modern, theology. For someone who presumes to lecture on Christianity, you are a very poor one by example.
“Your kingdom come... huh? That means your kingdom come where — well it says... “On earth as it is in heaven””
I will say this one more time:
He is referring to Judgment Day, not some 1000 year super-government.
He is referring to Judgment Day, not some 1000 year super-government.
Except for the problem that He says differently... LOL...
If the government becomes a tyranny? You can’t hide behind Romans 13 to avoid your duty as a citizen, Star Traveler.
Well, I know you want to ignore and disregard God's Word, but there are Christians who don't... :-)
Romans Chapter 13 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Paul didn’t, after all. He frequently disobeyed the government.
And there you go again... once again... LOL...
As I've said before you always ignore the provisos... It's like I said, when you have God's direct word on something He tells you to do and the authorities contradict God, then the Apostles said that you obey God and not the authorities...
Like I've said, God is the higher authority and He's already told Christians what to do in regards to obeying authorities except in the case where the authorities contradict what God has directly commanded.
Ah, but as always, you are too dense to understand that there are larger issues than the legal system.
You can say "neener, neener neener" all you want, and it won't change the legal system, until you go through the process to change the result that you get in the legal system through the other branches of government.
Jesus didn’t “obey the authorities” and neither did his Apostles.
And there you go again, just ignoring those provisos as has already been stated. LOL...
As I've said several times now, when God has commanded to do something that the authorities say not to do, God has said that this is when you obey God. That's the proviso that you keep ignoring, while wanting to ignore what God has already said about obeying the authorities...
You are one mixed up dude... :-)
And with Jesus, you do seem to forget that Jesus is God of the Triune Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... :-) Jesus Himself is the very center and object for all of Scripture.
To put it simply, He makes the rules as He has laid them down in the Bible as they are His very character. And He has also said to obey the authorities, too -- but you seem to want to "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible you like and which you don't like...
Oh, come on. You can’t be that dense (actually, you can). Paul wasn’t talking about about God being “afraid of Rome”, but that His followers shouldn’t make legal trouble for themselves if they could avoid it without breaking God’s law.
I can see your big problem here. It was God who wrote that, not Paul. Paul was the human agency that God used to write God's very words, as they are inerrant, infallible, without any error in all that they teach and all that they speak about.
And God simply isn't afraid of Rome or causing trouble or anything like that. You're thinking "human terms" -- as you keep referring to Paul and how he would think as a human being, transposing your human thinking onto him.
Sorry, God doesn't think like that. We have His exact and inerrant word for how God thinks. And when it does make it clear, you simply make up "human reactions" to explain away what God clearly states to all Christians.
You tell me.
Well, when I asked if liberalism was a bear, I was asking the expert... LOL...
You're sure an expert at the "liberalism" of Scripture in anthropomorphizing it into your own image... LOL...
The New Testament is clear.
The entire Bible is clear, the Old Testament and the New Testament, which is one Bible, from beginning to end. And certainly with it all being clear -- it's also very clear that you don't want to follow all that it says... :-)
I understand Him. You do not speak for Him.
Ummmm..., I think you're hearing that same voice that some woman heard in the Garden of Eden... hissing at you... LOL...
I can be well assured that you certainly don't speak for him. However, I don't speak for Him either -- but I do follow what He says, which apparently you have a problem with.
You can’t even read the clear text of the Bible and sneer at anyone who doesn’t agree with your particular, and modern, theology.
Ummmm..., that's a mirror that you're looking into... LOL...
And while we're at it about poor examples... there are many people who would consider Jesus, Himself to be a "poor example" of who Jesus should be... LOL...
Matthew Chapter 23 13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. 23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
I mean, really! How rude! Doesn't Jesus know that He's not being very "Jesus-like" when He does stuff like that...
John Chapter 2 13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the moneychangers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."
Ummmm..., I'm sure a lot of people think that Jesus let His temper get the better of Him. Doesn't Jesus know that He's not being very "Jesus-like" by going around with a whip and throwing things down and causing chaos like that?
My... my... Jesus just isn't being very Jesus-like, is He? LOL...
“And God simply isn’t afraid of Rome or causing trouble or anything like that. You’re thinking “human terms” — as you keep referring to Paul and how he would think as a human being, transposing your human thinking onto him.”
Like I said, Paul was instructing Roman Christians to avoid unnecessary conflict with the authorities.
I’ll leave you with the link to a very good book above.
The Bible is clear to me. I do not follow what YOU say it means.
With that, I truly am done casting pearls before swine.
Like I said, Paul was instructing Roman Christians to avoid unnecessary conflict with the authorities.
I already know that you're anthropomorphizing God's words into your own image, but that doesn't make it authoritative, once it's gone through the anthropomorphizing process... LOL...
I’ll leave you with the link to a very good book above.
I see you've decided to resort to using other human opinions now... after decrying anyone else using human opinions... LOL...
I might mention that what is described in the "relations" between government and religion -- is more aptly described in Revelation (in God's words) as the "Whore of Babylon".... that's what you get in the "relations" between religion and government -- as God sees it, from mankind handling it in his sinful nature.
The very first sentence says, "The true alliance between Politics and Religion..." -- and God says, "the Whore of Babylon"... in how that's worked out over the entire course of human history.
Now..., here's some good "human opinion" -- since you now wish to resort to that...
At the Pre-Trib Research Center, you'll find some top scholars (and they are still alive... :-) ...), who will address these very issues spoken about here. There are plenty of "papers" submitted, discussing these very things and they are done in much greater detail than can be mustered here.
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