Posted on 01/12/2012 10:29:33 PM PST by djf
We use them and they can be turned by hand....if you are berry stwong and got time.
I ain’t got neither, well at least not the patience.
You need a good impact drill. One the works off a compressor is best but the electric one works as well.
We had to custom a truss system for a Hot Tub job and made the screws ourselves. I forget why but, I think it was the length of the screw and we couldn’t find it.
So we built making them into the job and the customer was happy.
So are we as we know that thing won’t be coming apart even if it rolled down hill.
My 2cents.
Oops - wrong thread. I thought it said Double Tap and Die.
Cool! Hard to believe that is all done at room temperature.
I have a friend who has used a Jet lathe and a small mill along with a few sheet metal tools and rivet tools to build a large range of parts. After getting the tools it becomes a matter of storing a proper balance of steel shapes, types, and sizes. Along with the proper lubes, surfacing and maintenance supplies.
I remember working with tap and die sets in shop class while in high school. I thought it was so cool to make your own threads in pieces of metal. Arc Welding was fun too.
Do they allow kids to do that stuff in school anymore?
The bolts and screws you find at Walmart are nowhere near as strong.
Do a search on SAE standards.
Probably not.
When I was young in upstate NY, they had what they called “vocational schools”. Machine tooling, auto repair, furnace maintenance/installation, heck all sorts of stuff.
I imagine the nanny-staters have gotten them abolished by now.
Too dangerous!!!!
Ref: Tap and die? Experiences? Recommendations? Enlightenment?
First off you get what you pay for, Chinese cheap not good, if your lucky; maybe two to three times of use for each size.
I have a set of Snap-on (The Gold Standard) Tap & Die, for about 30 Plus year’s. VERY EXPENSIVE, worth every dollar spent. Looking back, at the amount of use as a Body & Fender Man (about 22 - 25 years) Welder - Fabricator 8 plus years, they have earned their KEEP.
When tapping a new hole lets say a size of 5/16 in. You’ll need to look at a chart (Available lot’s of place’s) to see what size drill bit to use. From experience, do not use the recommended size right off, do start maybe with one to three size(s) smaller, and finish with the size recommended.
Question: Why would I want to do all that extra work?
Answer: So you don’t wind up with a triangle Hole. But, but; the drill bit’s are round, how in the world do you wind up with a Triangle hole.
What I’m talking about, is simple to prove, just drill a 5/16” in., hole and look at it, if your honest with yourself, and your eye’s, you’ll see it. P.S. Did I also mention that I did work for about 5-year’s for a VERY Large Airplane Manufacturer (Mid 80’s - Early 90’s) in the Pacific Northwest, Hint: Seattle, Everett. On Items that call for close tolerance(s) minimum 3 size(s) under, until reaching finial size needed.
Also when Drilling Metal(s) approximately 650 rpm to maybe like 1200 rpm recommended, to save your drill bit(s). Use proper CUTTING lubricating oil.
When in the act of Tapping a hole/ Cutting Round Stock (with a Die,) DO NOT KEEP TURNING the Tap or Die!!!! You should only Turn approximately 1/2 to 1 full turn, then back out of the hole approximately 1/2 to 1 full turn, so as to let out the piece’s of metal that have just been cut, to fall out!!!!!!!!!!!! Do use proper CUTTING lubricating oil, don’t go crazy with it. Pint might cost approx., 4-6 Dollar’s, treat as though it cost $30 - $40, you’ll get the idea. More cutting oil, does not equal better performance, when doing Tap and Die by hand.
Don’t follow the above advice, you’ll break a TAP or DIE, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE, Tap and die is a VERY SLOW PROCESS, when done by hand.
Very hard, TIME CONSUMING, to remove a broken Tap or Die depending on where or how you achieved the dilemma of your choice(s).
Hey; I’m no Rocket Scientist, just a welder (Born in 1953.)
Welder in Ship Yard’s to Fabrication Specialty Shop(s), Body & Fender when I was a youngster, oh and a five year stint for an airplane maker.
Don’t be a Fool when drilling, WEAR EYE PROTECTION!!!!!!! You only get one set of eye’s, and Ten Fingers. I’m down to 9-3/4. Hint for safety first.
I could write a lot more on the subject (Like Starter {First cut} Tap & Die,) Bottom Tap’s etc., but the above should be useful to those individuals who take pride in their work.
Thanks.
The reason I’m asking is because basically, I don’t know anything about it.
If I were doing this I would start watching the estate sales.
Older mechanics are unfortunately passing away all the time. Their tools are often on the auction block. What they owned they bought many years ago and is suppior to most of what is available today. Auction prices for old tools often go very cheap.
Just as Pontiac said, estate sales, flea markets and auctions are a good source for quality older tools. It will be readily apparent if they have been well-cared for or abused.
As for nuts and bolts, for fifty-plus years, I’ve had a “Lucky Box: into which I toss every nut and bolt I remove from any project I’m doing, especially the trashed machinery headed for recycle. Over the years I’ve amassed several hundred pounds of miscellaneous fasteners. If I need a one-off nut or bolt, I’ll look there and see if I’m lucky that day. I usually am. Good luck.
TC
Get taps and dies made out of high speed steel. They will be marked with "HS" on them. If they don't have this marking they are almost certainly made out of high carbon steel, which is not nearly as durable and will dull very quickly.
There are starter taps, "plug" taps, and bottom taps. Difference is the amount of taper on them. If you are only going to have one set, get the plug taps. They are halfway in between. Starter taps are nearly self-aligning. Bottom taps are best used after a plug or starter tap has been used first, to get full depth threads (almost) all the way to the bottom of the hole.
There are two flute, three flute, and four flute taps. Two flute taps are the most resistant to breakage because the center web is slightly thicker, but they are also the most difficult to get started straight unless you have them in a drill press or other fixture. I don't particularly like them. Four flute taps are probably the most common and easiest to use. Three flute are a little more resistant to breakage, especially in the small sizes. Gun taps throw the chip forward. They should not be used except on through holes, holes that go all the way through the material, otherwise you will be picking the chips out of the bottom of the hole.
Drill and tap the hole deeper than the bolt will go in so you will have full threads for the whole length of the bolt engagement. You want the bolt to clamp on the head only, not bind in the threads.
Always be sure the tap is perpendicular to the material (in line with the hole). This is very important. If you start the tap crooked, it will bind up before you get very deep.
Use the proper lubricant for the material, and back the tap out a turn or so frequently to break the chip.
Tap drill charts usually provide for about 75% thread depth. Don't try to go smaller on the hole. You will get almost no increase in thread strength, but it will be much harder to tap the hole. A little too big on the hole is better than too small.
A little chamfer on the hole before tapping is a good idea. Make the chamfer just slightly larger that the nominal (major) diameter of the bolt. The chamfer makes the tap easier to start and keeps the tap from pulling the first thread it cuts up above the surface of the material.
Full resistance to thread stripping is reached when the thread engagement is equal to the major diameter of the bolt. IOW, a half inch bolt should screw in at least a half inch deep. The chamfer doesn't count as thread engagement.
Hope this helps.
rmh47-retired tool and die maker
What you said is very true, tool brand(s) @ estate sales to look for Snap-on, Cornwall, Matco.
Why are these tool brand(s) better, just look at say any socket, you’ll see that the hole/size is centered, than look at say a Sear’s socket, and you will see it is off centered.
P.S. when using a open end / box wrench, to loosen a nut, ALWAY’S start with the Box end to loosen first, then switch to the open end.
If you start with the open end, and there is a lot of resistance, the open end will spread apart and slip off, if your lucky, you won’t curt your knuckles. Also when loosening a nut/bolt combination, ALWAYS loosen the nut if accessible, NOT THE HEAD OF THE BOLT, as shown on THE SHOW American Restorer. That is an example of how NOT TO DO IT.
I should put them in my Last Testament and Will for you!
That’s a good and informative post!
Thanks FRiend :-)
Ping for excellent and not often published tapping information.
There's no such thing as blank bolts and nuts (except for liberals) or mistakes made by the manufacture.
You could secure an assortment of round rod and and hex bar mild steel stock but who wouldn't ever want to make more than one or two. Anything you made would be of poor quality even compared to the cheapest Chinese made fasteners and just as soft.
Certainly, if you do a lot of tinkering, you need a decent set of taps and dies (mostly for repairing threads). Sometimes you even need to create new threads in a project or thread a rod for a particular use but you'll never want to build a bolt or nut for an appliance when you could cannibalize if you don't have what you need in your assortment of fasteners.
HF (Harbor Freight) is a good place to pick up some fastener assortments to keep around home. Professional shops usually have supply salespeople that keep them stocked. Check out your local Tractor Supply where you can buy fasteners by the pound. Grade 5 bolts there run around $3 lb or so. Buy around 10 of everything they have in grade 5 and if you don't want to buy a bin, dump them in a bucket that you pour out on your bench and scratch through for what you need.
Ebay is a good source for inexpensive tap and die sets as well as drills sets. HF also has cheap drill sets suitable for home use only.
Tinkering should always be fun! :)
rmh47 - Good run down on the subject! Might add paying a good amount of attention to centering. Newly tapped holes always starts with a center punch.
In general; cutting threads are always weaker than rolled (cold forged) heads & threads. Also, if you don't have a good bench vise and a variety of c-clamps that's a higher priority than taps & dies.
Quality tools can sometimes be found used at estate sales or pawn shops, but you have to be patient as it is not common. My greatest pawn shop find was a set of Snap-On combo wrenches from 7/16" - 1 1/4" for $20 for all! Individually priced at Snap-On.com, they were worth over $700! It was hard to pay and walk out the door with a straight face, though when I go down the block in my truck I let out a celebratory yell then!
It's available in screw sizes and you can braze a washer and slot the end to create a sort of temporary screw.
It will still be soft if bought from the hardware store or big box store. Harden all thread is available from Mcmasters and etc.
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