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To: Joe 6-pack
OK...I was careless in failing to qualify my words. Rather than leaving it open to the interpretation that no lies were protected speech, I should have been more clear that certain lies not only fall outside the realm of protected speech, but constitute criminal acts. Is that better?

Sure. But it still does nothing to further your argument that simply lying about military service or medals should be criminalized.

I would argue that "Stolen Valor" lies similarly victimize a class of persons in much the same way the passer of a counterfeit $20 bill victimizes every holder of a legitimately obtained, genuine $20 bill.

I disagree. If the bank finds that a customer has given them a bad note, they do not stop accepting $20 notes from everyone. So, the value of my legitimate $20 note retains the same value after the discovery of a bad note as it had before. Therefore, I have not been harmed.

If someone lies about serving in the Coast Guard, it does nothing to lessen the service I provided.

Do you honestly believe that people falsely claiming military services was such a big problem that we needed a new federal law to address it?

If someone is misrepresenting themselves to defraud someone else, why aren't existing fraud laws good enough?

If someone is defaming or libeling you, can't you already sue under defamation or libel laws?

Similarly, if someone is committing perjury by claiming under oath to have received a medal, why aren't existing perjury laws good enough to prosecute?

IMO, we shoudn't jail people for lying about the 'one that got away'. As I wrote, lying, in and of itself, is harmless. It is the lies that harm that should be criminalized, and not too surprisingly, they are already against the law.

27 posted on 03/15/2012 4:56:42 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
"If the bank finds that a customer has given them a bad note, they do not stop accepting $20 notes from everyone."

But if they find the guy who passed them the note, they prosecute him.

"So, the value of my legitimate $20 note retains the same value after the discovery of a bad note as it had before. Therefore, I have not been harmed."

Key words: "...after the discovery..." Every bad $20 floating around out there devalues, and therefore victimizes the holders of genuine $20's. In the case of a single $20 note, its an infinitesimally small lessening of value, but it diminishes the value nonetheless. Similarly, an awardee of a Navy Cross has been duly recognized for his service. While the value of that recognition can't necessarily be quantified in monetary terms, the just recognition he receives is lessened when you have 50 other people running around claiming the same recognition.

"If someone lies about serving in the Coast Guard, it does nothing to lessen the service I provided."

Of course not, but it lowers the value of your service in the eyes of others. Maybe not to a huge or perceptible degree, but if everybody else in your town was running around saying they were a Coastie, the recognition you were due, and have earned would be undermined. Keep in mind also, that the SVA is not for lies about service per se but about lies about the receipt of specific awards, recognizing specific acts.

"Do you honestly believe that people falsely claiming military services was such a big problem that we needed a new federal law to address it?"

Yes. If you look at it from the opposite end of the question, do you think the military should recognize valorous acts with awards? If your answer is, "yes", that begs the question, "Why?" Once you've answered that question to yourself take the allowance to its extremes...either give every American an MOH to wear around town, or simply have the military do away with giving awards for valorous service. One undermines the recognition bestowed by a grateful nation upon a select few, and the other adversely impacts the morale and motivation of the armed forces as a whole.

"If someone is misrepresenting themselves to defraud someone else, why aren't existing fraud laws good enough?"

Because most fraud laws as written require an overt act to obtain a thing of value expressed in some monetary amount. As I stated earlier, there are things "of value" (i.e. reputation, liberty, etc.) that can not always be quantified in those terms. Our legal system in general, recognizes that there are things of value that can't be quantified as such, but most fraud laws don't measure or encompass them.

"If someone is defaming or libeling you, can't you already sue under defamation or libel laws?"

Those laws typically require a specific victim. Stolen Valor Act offenders victimize a general class.

"Similarly, if someone is committing perjury by claiming under oath to have received a medal, why aren't existing perjury laws good enough to prosecute?"

Provided that the lie is materiel to the case, the perjury accounts only for the victimization perpetrated upon the court. If however, say that (false) testimony is given about an award as a matter of mitigation for a defendent or to bolster the credibility of a witness, both the community at large, and the legitimate holders of that award are victimized by the cheapening of recognition due to recipients of that award.

"IMO, we shoudn't jail people for lying about the 'one that got away'."

And I agree with you. If however, you tell the warden you have a fishing license, you better damn well have the paperwork to back it up.

"As I wrote, lying, in and of itself, is harmless. It is the lies that harm that should be criminalized, and not too surprisingly, they are already against the law."

And there have long been laws against false claims of the MOH. All that Stolen Valor did was expand the law to protect recipients of lower precedence awards.

30 posted on 03/15/2012 5:51:18 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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