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To: urtax$@work; LucyT; Fred Nerks; Brown Deer; justiceseeker93
This topic has a couple of points.

The argument is not that a "natural born" citizen is a person who became a citizen at birth because of the place, condition, or circumstances of their birth.

You should note that lawyers, particularly the immigration bar, tend to use the phrase "natural born" as a form of shorthand, when they mean "citizen at birth". They are not thinking about the the question as a legal issue under the only circumstances in our law where any requirement of "natural born" would make a difference which is Article II, sec. 1 of the Constitution.

The requirement that a person become a citizen at birth because of the place, condition, or circumstances of their birth is one of the requirements of Natural Born Citizenship, but it is not the only requirement.

The other remaining substantive requirement of natural born citizenship is that it occur within the geographical territory of the several states.

Thus a person who was born in an embassy offshore; or on a military base; or on a territory not subject to permanent sovereignty of the US; does not qualify as Natural Born.

Although I am on the hook for the proposition that, for example, Goldwater, who was born in the territory of Arizona prior to statehood would qualify, I wouldn't be embarrassed to make the contrary argument if I were on the other side for the reason that the prospect of possible sovereignty in some other jurisdiction than the United States presented the exposure of exercise of that sovereignty over the President.

I suppose that the academic answer of the day which was that risk was eliminated by the fact that prior to the time he became a candidate, Arizona had been admitted as a state was the likely result if the case got to the Supreme Court.

But the point is that to the extent any requirement other than citizenship at birth was incorporated in the "natural born" clause, whatever the original intended scope of that requirement--what exists today if the issue reaches the Supreme Court is a requirement that the birth have occurred under circumstances where the person could not have ever been subject to the sovereignty of some other head of state as a consequence of the place or circumstances of birth. That requirement necessitates that the birth have occurred within the territory of the several states.

Technically, as someone points out above, the language in Minor v. Happersett, 88 US 162 (1875) stating that the holding encompassed citizenship by birth in the several states and parental citizenship is dicta to the extent of the parental citizenship language.

Technically adept lawyers recognize that language as dicta for two reasons. The parental citizenship fact was not required to find that the Plaintiff was a citizen at birth--she was a citizen at birth even if her parents were not citizens. Further, the language is dicta because the technical issue presented did not include the question of "natural born" citizenship.

That is, the question of whether or not a person is a "natural born" citizen or not is relevant for only one purpose under our law and that is under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution to test the eligibility of a person to hold the office of President of the United States--that was not the issue in Minor.

As to the guy in the White House, Barry, his issue is a place of birth problem only whoever his parents were.

In my opinion, if he was born outside the US, he is not Natural Born and is not eligible; if he was born inside the territory of the several states, the answer is to the contrary. It is that simple and there is pretty clearly enough record on the proposition that anyone who wants to read any of the judicial pronouncements or literature on the question should recognize that is how the Court would come down.

The discussion here also includes the topic of the swearing in ceremony.

Someone says there is no evidence of an issue other than the technical reading of the oath that there was some other cure issue in the later swearing ceremonies.

The evidence is the appearance of Vice President Cheney in a recorded element of a second alternate swearing.

See there were really a total of three swearing in ceremonies--the first the public which was ineffective; the second a private ceremony the circumstances of which were recorded with Cheney's presence; the third the ceremony with Robert's of which the video is in circulation.

The one that counted was the second.

39 posted on 06/23/2012 10:14:13 AM PDT by David
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To: David
That is, the question of whether or not a person is a "natural born" citizen or not is relevant for only one purpose under our law and that is under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution to test the eligibility of a person to hold the office of President of the United States--that was not the issue in Minor.
Would you say that Minor v. Happersett has within it a definition of, or what constitutes, a natural born citizen?
43 posted on 06/23/2012 11:02:59 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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