Posted on 10/03/2014 5:10:05 PM PDT by Vinylly
Not as much as people want. Rome was NEVER a democracy. They were a slave economy.
Rome failed when it ceased to be a Republic.
That’s a very good point.
IMO comparing one of Gibbons’ conclusions to the sources he cites would make an interesting study for a high schooler.
I can’t argue with your reasoning, but it may be that prior to Augustus the Roman Senate still had some actual power.
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They certainly had continuous power through the assassination of Julius.
never said it didn’t.
The definitions I have seen of empire: some say under a single authority (emperor) and others say under an oligarchy (could include senate). The republic in Rome would certainly have been governing an empire under the second concept and for nearly 200 years prior to Augustus.
What is your opinion on the look at us we’re falling like Rome issue?
The Roman Kingdom started in 753 BC and ended in 509 BC, the “Republic” dated from 509 BC to 27 BC, the “Empire” dated to AD 476 and then morphed into the Byzantine Empire that lasted until 1453 AD.
The “Republic” was an Oligarchic Timocracy. Certainly NOTHING that we would want. Moreover, the post “Republican” Roman Empire lasted over 900 years after Ceaser replaced the structure of the Oligarchy with a new structure, but still Oligarchic just less Timocratic.
I promised myself a treat some time ago that I would read Gibbons. Fascinating and very surprising. I'm a little more than half-way through an abridged version (over 1,000 pages). I'm well into the early history of the Roman and Byzantine church.
The church and state had a very cozy and corrupt relationship which had little to do with religion. They both tended to use each other, often for personal enrichment. The state, thanks primarily to Constantine, always seemed to have the upper hand.
The state/church shamelessly plundered the empire and filled its offices with morally corrupt individuals. Justice was grossly unjust with bribery and extortion commonplace. My full verdict is still out however, but what I thought I knew is being confirmed by Gibbons. Rome was a rotten apple, pretty and shiny on the outside and filled with worms on the inside.
I’ve also heard malaria-carrying mosquitoes arriving in Italy.
That too and this thing about bringing in sand for the Colosseum rather than food ... Rome was importing more than exporting so their money was leaving the city ....
PS - how’s the retirement center doing down there in Texas?
I never suggested you did. I was speculating. You don't have an argument with me - you have an argument with every history book written since Tacitus. Who was the first Roman emperor?
Gibbon was a hater of the Church and that badly colored his scholarship.
In context, the Roman Empire didn’t really fall with Rome, because the capital of the Empire had shifted East to Constantinople.
A very interesting comparison of the Eastern Roman Empire to modern America was how its Empress, Theodora I, singlehandedly extended the life of the empire by 200 years or more.
Before you read this, imagine the political factions then as the political factions today: the whites and the reds being Republicans; the blues being liberal Democrats, and the greens being radical Democrats.
With blues and greens in the ascendancy, they decided to seize control of the crown. But their scheme didn’t go according to plan, and about 30,000 radical greens were killed.
And it was the absence of these hate-filled radicals that stabilized their nation. An interesting comparison, indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots
since the senate was appointing counsels up through the day Julius brought his army into Rome, I will say him for a very short period. Then of course Augustus.
There is a difference between having an empire and having an emperor as I explained before.
Where are you on the US Fall of Rome speculation?
That'll take down any society.
I have a friend who is a scholar on Rome. I asked him.
“Rome was great so long as her Legions were great.”
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