Posted on 02/11/2015 9:11:47 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER
In texas, one needs to prove place of birth, age, and show soc sec # in order to get a driver license. How did the of-age children get licenses without having birth cert & soc sec #?
This issue here is not that Alicia does not have a birth certificate but instead a bigger issue, why does she need all this id to get things like a drivers license, a job etc. The overarching government is the issue, not the fact that she doesn’t have a birth certificate.
Not so long ago one did not need government approval to have a good full life.
This issue here is not that Alicia does not have a birth certificate but instead a bigger issue, why does she need all this id to get things like a drivers license, a job etc. The overarching government is the issue, not the fact that she doesn’t have a birth certificate.
Not so long ago one did not need government approval to have a good full life.
I don’t know what this girl’s older siblings did. But... it looks as if she has options:
For one thing, she doesn’t need a driver’s license to go to college and qualify for in-state tuition and aid in Texas.
And, if she doesn’t need to drive right now, then without the SSN, she could be issued a Texas non-driver’s photo ID:
http://world.utexas.edu/io/forms/isss/drivers_license.pdf
At least for now, until she sorts everything else out...
If she wants a driver’s license, it appears that, in Texas, if you’ve never been issued an SSN, you can go to any driver’s license office and file an affidavit attesting that you never received an SSN:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/ssn.htm
Did that court order for a family name change include her? If so, then she could show identity using her college records together with that court order for a name change:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/identificationrequirements.htm
In any case, the Daily Mail reported that she’s now saying her parents are helping her. So, she’ll be fine.
But, it’s interesting to figure out what other people would do if they were in the same situation.
Info below, in reply to your post #120 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3256692/posts?page=120#120
Student aid
TASFA form instructions at that link is for foreign born residents.
The worksheet at that link wants the Texas State ID card #.
Info for your post #125, fist link, about the non-driver ID
The requirements for a Texas non-driver photo ID are passport, I-20 or DS-2019, Form I-94 and current enrollment letter.
The 3 forms other than passport are for foreign students. Not sure what the enrollment letter requires.
No SSN needed though.
She might try the passport route; there are secondary and third level docs they will consider...
a lot of those need to be early childhood type docs and her best bet is gather what she has and all her elders (grandparents, aunt & uncle) go in person to file paperwork.
Let me dig in the passport rule page to see if she’s got any of the secondary/third level docs.
She already tried the D/L and was denied; not sure if they tried the ‘no SSN’ affidavit.
Name change is interesting; Alecia only has notarized name change (for herself only), not court order...
J Grace, her oldest sibling claimed that is what she (Grace) used to start the ball rolling on her documentation quest.
fist s/b first
Issue is that she wants to prove that she is a U.S. citizen.
but on the mom’s blog, midyear last year, she claims she had to do all the driving because nobody else with her had licenses.
Didn’t say if any of the of-age kids were with her.
Something doesn’t add up here...
Sending FRmail...
Mom mentioned “the girls” in her blog post.
In another, she mentions taking all 4 shopping in the “big city”.
They live in a small town 65 miles away.
I would think that the same policies that apply to foreign-born “undocumented” people also would apply to an “undocumented” person who was born here (even though she can’t prove that she was... at least not yet).
I’ll check in again tomorrow... This topic is interesting.
That is the micro issue. The macro issue is that one has to account to the government. Slavery has to start somewhere.
I believe the foreign born folks need to show something from immigration dept as to their status, thus the “I-xx” docs listed.
Those docs, I believe, depend on the foreign born person showing some kind of document, visa, passport, matricula consular card, something issued by their government.
The matricula consular cards used by folks from mexico are issued by the mexican government.
From this website:
http://www.bankersonline.com/articles/bhv12n10/bhv12n10a1.html
“In order to obtain a Matricula Consular a Mexican native must have an original birth certificate, a photo identification from Mexico such as a voter’s card or a Mexican driver’s license and something to prove they now live in the United States, such as a water or gas bill with a local address. The Matricula cards cost about $25 to $30 and are good for five years The American banking system relies on Social Security numbers, which are used to track accounts, verify the identity of customers and report taxable earnings to the government. Accepting the Matricula skirts that issue. If the individual holding a Matricula Consular wants to open an interest bearing account, the IRS will issue an individual taxpayer identification number, so that earnings on interest-bearing accounts can be reported.
“
Here’s the passport secondary documents info; website is
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/passports/information/secondary-evidence.html
Passports > Your Passports > Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship
PrintEmail
Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship
If you cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship, you must submit secondary evidence of U.S. citizenship. Determine what form of secondary evidence is most appropriate for your situation based on the descriptions below.
Early Public Records
If you were born in the United States and cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship, submit a combination of early public records as evidence of your U.S. citizenship. Early public records must be submitted with a Letter of No Record. Early public records should show your name, date of birth, place of birth, and preferably be created within the first five years of your life. Examples of early public records are:
Baptismal certificate
Hospital birth certificate
Census record
Early school record
Family bible record
Doctor’s record of post-natal care
Early Public Records are not acceptable when presented alone.
Delayed Birth Certificate
If you were born in the United States and cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship because your U.S. Birth Certificate was not filed within the first year of your birth, you may submit a Delayed U.S. Birth Certificate. A Delayed U.S. Birth Certificate filed more than one year after your birth may be acceptable if:
It lists the documentation used to create it (preferably early public records), and
It is signed by the birth attendant or lists an affidavit signed by the parents.
If your Delayed U.S. Birth Certificate does not include these items, it should be submitted together with Early Public Records.
Letter of No Record
If you were born in the United States and cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship because you do not have a previous U.S. passport or a certified U.S. birth certificate of any kind, you must present a state-issued Letter of No Record showing:
Your name,
Your date of birth,
The years for which a birth record was searched, and
Acknowledgement that no birth certificate was found on file.
A Letter of No Record must be submitted together with Early Public Records.
Form DS-10: Birth Affidavit
If you were born in the United States and cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship, you may submit Form DS-10: Birth Affidavit as evidence of your U.S. citizenship. The birth affidavit:
Must be notarized,
Must be submitted in person with Form DS-11,
Must be submitted together with early public records,
Must be completed by an affiant who has personal knowledge of birth in the U.S.,
Must state briefly how the affiant’s knowledge was acquired, and
Should be completed by an older blood relative.
NOTE: If no older blood relative is available, it may be completed by the attending physician or any other person who has personal knowledge of your birth.
I just searched and found more on the background of this story. It is beginning to sound increasingly disturbing, to say the least.
This young woman’s dilemma is like a puzzle to solve: What would someone, who has no documentation of her existence, have to do to either prove that she is a U.S. citizen by birth or, at the very least, be permitted to legally go to college, get a job, drive a car, travel with a valid passport, buy health insurance, get married, and so on?
OTOH, I can’t help but wonder: Is there an advantage to “not existing,” at least not on paper? Could she take advantage somehow of this situation she’s in? According to what other people are saying, there are some parents who believe in raising so-called “ninja babies” that don’t exist on paper. (Am I understanding that correctly?) Presumably, these parents must believe there’s some kind of advantage to not existing on paper... What advantage do these parents think their children will have?
Just some questions... wondering out loud...
I’ll be back later. Right now I have other obligations to attend to.
Many thanks for doing the search; FRmail links if necessary.
You are correct in likening the situation to a puzzle; that’s why it ‘grabs you’... solve the mystery.
The only way to make “not existing” work is if there is enough of a support system, such as the Amish have. They are a self reliant people, with pretty much self contained set of communities. They can exist without ‘papers’ because they are not dependent on the feds to begin with.
They have provision for allowing young folks to decide whether they want to remain in the community (Google “rumspringa”).
There is a lady that helps them get documentation, so there is some way of doing it; Amish probably dont register the births; they sure don’t get soc sec #’s.
Perhaps that is the basis for the passport dept allowing the use of early childhood docs which include family bible entries and affidavits from older family members.
The problem with not existing on paper is that one cannot prove citizenship.
This is a huge issue! Third possibly fourth generation Texan can’t prove she’s a citizen of Texas or the u.s.
In my search, I ran across that term, “ninja babies”, and you are correct, the parents don’t want them to have any ‘papers’.
The parents have bought into the theory that the ‘sovereign citizens’ espouse (no taxes, travel without passport, etc), and are trying to keep their kids out of the ‘system’.
Thinking again of your question, about how is it an advantage not to exist on paper.
It is not an advantage.
A birth certificate and/or a passport define who is a citizen (for immigrants, its naturalization papers, and then the passport).
Citizens define a nation, borders define a nation, and without those (and language) then there -is- no nation.
OK I will start with the macro macro issue and go from there, opposite of the last part of this post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3256692/posts?page=136#136
Citizens define a nation (also borders and language).
Birth (and baptism) certificates prove place of birth and name, and thus define who is a citizen.
Then with that, they can get a passport.
(immigrants get naturalization papers and then passports) .
I did come across one conversation where someone claimed that, as part of a religious group that opposes social security, they use Taxpayer ID#'s, instead of SS#'s. But, when I looked up Taxpayer ID#'s on the IRS website, it said those are only for "alien individuals who are ineligible for SS#'s."
Then I found this: http://www.jct.gov/x-16-04.pdf
This document is around 11 years old now, but here's what it says:
Except as otherwise specified under Treasury regulations, a SSN is used as an individual’s identifying number for tax purposes. [16]
[16] Sec. 6109(d); Treas. Reg. secs. 301.6109-1(a)(1)(ii)(A) and 301.7701-11. Alternate arrangements may apply to the children of taxpayers (such as the Amish) who are members of recognized groups that have religious objections to participation in the Social Security program, who have filed Form 4029 (Application for Exemption From Social Security and Medicare Taxes and Waiver of Benefits), and who have received approval of their Form 4029 application.
Here's the form: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4029.pdf
HOWEVER, the form is just for a waiver of payment of SS taxes. It still asks for a SS#.
So it doesn't help this girl. But it seems that's what the Amish use.
Back to square one...
Well at least she can still vote.
http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/08/upstate-new-york-amish-struggle-survival/3007/
Thanks for the links and the info; the lady that helps the Amish with their documentation has done it for folks from the most conservative of Amish, the Swartzentruber Amish.
These folks don’t get social security numbers and there may be no birth cert, so all they have are affidavits and perhaps family bible .... same situation as Alecia.
But in her case, she isn’t a member of any amish group, which will make it harder.
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