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To: DiogenesLamp
So let us cut right to the meat of the matter. By what argument can you claim that the ~2 1/2 million people in the 13 colonies be sufficient, but the 9 million in the 11 Southern states is insufficient?

I am saying that any number is sufficient to declare independence, but that you have to expect a fight. And, since you have to win that fight to gain what you want, the more people the better.

I am saying that any number is sufficient to try to negotiate an avenue to independence, such as Scotland did. However, the more people the better if you wish to persuade anyone else.

And, no matter what path you choose, you should not pretend to speak for God on the matter. Like the colonists, you can appeal to "the Supreme Judge of the World" for strength.

And, if the Declaration of Independence is to be your guide, you should wait until circumstances are such that you can make a good case that it has become "necessary" to seek independence. In my view, the desire to own slaves didn't meet that test. But, my view on that isn't relevant. I wasn't there.

Finally, accept that you are not God and that you don't speak for God. If you are successful, fine. If you fail, accept your loss with grace.

923 posted on 08/03/2015 5:10:31 PM PDT by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Tau Food
I am saying that any number is sufficient to declare independence, but that you have to expect a fight.

You keep saying that, as if the British were still in power, and as if we didn't live in a nation that specifically and explicitly proclaims a right to leave a larger Union.

Why do you keep saying that? It's like you just assume the Founders were all Liars, and didn't really mean what they said when they espoused a right given by Nature and Nature's God to leave another nation.

Why should there need to be a fight if people follow the tenets of the founding document? If Lincoln hadn't rebelled against the Declaration of Independence, there never would have been a war.

And, no matter what path you choose, you should not pretend to speak for God on the matter.

I am not speaking for God, I am pointing out that the Founders regarded it as a Divine right of mankind to leave a nation which they no longer believed suited their interests.

If you have a bone to pick about the invocation of God regarding the Declaration of Independence, you need to pick it with the Founders, and not with me. *I* didn't put it in there. They did. *I* merely point out that it IS in there.

you can make a good case

Do you have to "make a good case" to decide how you will worship? Do you have to "make a good case" to keep police from searching your home without a warrant? Do you have to "make a good case" to publish a newspaper?

Because, silly me, I thought those were rights, and that you could exercise them for whatever reasons you choose, and that you didn't have to "make a good case" in order to exercise a right.

The Right to Independence is no different. It is either a right, and therefore not requiring permission, or it is not. The founders said it was, and I believe them, and so did most people until a clever Lawyer came along and turned the whole thing on it's ear.

Now people no longer know or understand the distinction. You color as a "privilege" what is actually a right.

924 posted on 08/03/2015 7:12:39 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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