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[ Daily Tolkien ] A Tolkien Virgin: Of The Coming of Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
Tolkien Online ^
| August 23, 1999
| Mark-Edmond
Posted on 01/10/2003 2:46:30 AM PST by JameRetief
click here to read article
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To: maquiladora; ecurbh; HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom; Maigret; NewCenturions; 24Karet; Wneighbor; ...
Your Tolkien Virgin Ping!
Read along with a Tolkien Virgin as he discovers and comments on the history of Middle Earth as he reads it for the first time. These articles start with The Silmarillion, journeys through The Hobbit, and finishes with the epic Lord Of The Rings. At the pace of 2 articles per week (Mondays and Fridays) the articles will wrap up about the same time that the final movie of the Lord Of The Rings story is released.
If anyone would like for me to ping them directly when I post the Tolkien Virgin articles or my Daily Tolkien articles let me know. I hope that you enjoy them!
To: JameRetief
"These articles start with The Silmarillion"
Does that mean that the Tolkien virgin read the Silmarillion first. 32 years later, I still haven't read it.
3
posted on
01/10/2003 4:35:49 AM PST
by
Sam Cree
To: Sam Cree
Yes, the Tolkien Virgin is reading the stories in "Middle Earth History" chronological order. He's a student of History, and he felt that it would be to his liking to read the stories of Middle Earth that way. It will make for interesting commentary when he finally reads through The Lord Of The Rings.
To: JameRetief; 2Jedismom; Alkhin; Anitius Severinus Boethius; artios; AUsome Joy; austinTparty; ...
Ring Ping!! |
To: JameRetief
It will make for interesting commentary when he finally reads through The Lord Of The Rings.Very soon, hopefully.
6
posted on
01/10/2003 6:12:43 AM PST
by
Elenya
To: HairOfTheDog
To: VRWCmember
[snicker!] I have heard that one before!
8
posted on
01/10/2003 6:42:50 AM PST
by
HairOfTheDog
(You will not snag me so easy!)
To: JameRetief
Posted yesterday in the 'Model Languages' Tolkien article -
The word orc is used to describe goblins and is from the Old English word for "demon", a word used in Beowulf.I've always seen the orcs as representing fallen angels. In Tolkien they are depicted as having something done to them to make them become orcs, Biblically speaking the angels that fell did so because they chose to follow Lucifer, but then they possibly did so because they believed his lies as Eve did.
9
posted on
01/10/2003 7:21:38 AM PST
by
Maigret
To: Maigret
The fallen angels in middle earth are more represented by Balrogs. A balrog is a maia spirit, one level below the vala, and on the same level as the wizards and Sauron. balrogs are those Maia that decided to follow Melkor/Morgoth in the First Age.
10
posted on
01/10/2003 8:03:39 AM PST
by
delapaz
To: delapaz
The fallen angels in middle earth are more represented by Balrogs.That is interesting, though there are levels of angels and so it seems that the orcs could still fall in that category at a lesser level.
11
posted on
01/10/2003 11:14:07 AM PST
by
Maigret
To: Maigret
Just a thought...
I always felt the orcs represented those people, especially the children taken as tribute from every Christian village and town across the Ottoman Empire, especially in the Balkans ( Serbia mostly).
These youngsters were taken by the empire and used as Janissaries(soldiers) or male or female members of the Pashas'/Caliph's harems( they always had a "boy-thing" going on as well).
They were taught to hate Christianity and to kill them with great passion. They were instrumental in the Fall of Constantinople...they were ruthless and brutal.
Serbia fell to the Ottomans in 1388, I believe...Constantinople in 1458. The Ottomans has quite a while to steal children and turn them into "monsters"...killing machines for islam....Or sex toys for their rulers.
To: JameRetief
ME...ping me....please.....pretty please.
14
posted on
01/10/2003 11:45:02 AM PST
by
Mo1
(Join the DC Chapter at the Patriots Rally III on 1/18/03)
To: crazykatz
Thanks for some interesting history that I was not familiar with, I guess the great thing about Tolkien is that his work can have many applications, and yet still fall within absolute lines, i.e., good vs. evil.
15
posted on
01/10/2003 2:10:59 PM PST
by
Maigret
To: crazykatz
You have now been pinged! :-) And you've been added to the ping list. Welcome aboard!
To: JameRetief
I like this article. The breeding of Orcs is clearly said to be Morgoth's foulest deed, and I agree. Twisting such a noble and lovely race - I cannot find words to say how evil this is.
17
posted on
01/10/2003 5:17:48 PM PST
by
JenB
To: JameRetief
Three things:
1) Orcs are Elves corrupted by Morgoth: do they retain the Elvish immortality; ie, do Orcs live indefinitely free from age and disease, like Elves do, assuming they are not killed by violence?
2) If Morgoth can't create life, how did he create the Trolls? They are supposed to be created from stone in mockery of the Ents, but how did Morgoth do this, without creating life?
3) Can certain persons please take their incessant Islam-bashing to non-Hobbit Hole threads, please?
To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
I am not sure that the questions you asked are answered in Tolkien's works. If they are I don't remember. I will see if I can find an answer to your questions though.
Off the top of my head, it seems like Tolkien was leaving the Orcs ambiguous. Made from Elves or made from Men? The common conclusion is they are from Elves, but I don't think that that is directly spelled out by Tolkien.
Haven't thought any about the Troll origins. Like I said, I'll see what I can find.
To: JameRetief
You can see what happens when a mortal is influenced by the divine power of the Valar/Maiar.
Smeagol, after just a few hundred years is almost wholly corrupt from being exposed to the power that Sauron put into the ring.
Imagine the first elves, that fled from Orome, being captured my Melko and being HIS playthings for a few thousand years. And his power is infinitely greater than Saurons. Really easy to see the truth of the orcish origin.
Trolls were Ents, corrupted in the same way. I think this is more involved than just the orc issue though. And it also took longer to accomplish, and working underground for thousands of years they became intolerant of sunlight. Yet, there is no mention I think, of trolls becoming stone when hit by sunlight during the first two ages. Still trying to figure that one out as they are used in almost all the big battles of the Wars of Beleriand. Seems that Gothmogs troll guard would be pretty useless if they all had to hide during the day. So there must have been different breeds.
Everything Melkor corrupted shunned light, from being bred and tortured in the depths of Utumno and later Angband. And they also hated thier original race with a passion.
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