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How To Be Born Again
The Bible.com ^ | Bible.Com

Posted on 12/23/2003 9:25:31 AM PST by P-Marlowe

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT....HOW TO BE BORN AGAIN?

What's Wrong With This World?

Everywhere in this world we find heartache, strife, sickness, poverty, injustice and a host of other ills. Why can't men live in peace and enjoy the good things in this earth? The Bible (God's book to mankind) gives us the answer to these questions and tells us how to be born again and what that means. He tells us in His Book that all the troubles in the world are due to either my sin or someone else's. All of mankind is sinful, thus separated from the holiness of God.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

What exactly is sin? If you asked ten different people, you might get ten different answers. Some might say that sin is "doing something wrong or breaking the law", while others might say that sin is "hurting another person or taking an innocent life." Still others might deny the very existence of sin, saying that there is no such thing as right or wrong-- in short, that there are no real absolutes in this world. However, most people agree (regardless of culture) that there are certain actions that are wrong, and should be punishable by fines, imprisonment or even death.

Even the person who "doesn't believe in right or wrong" would have a hard time observing a maniac rape and murder a small child, and say that what happened to them was not a crime.

Sin is a terminal disease that eats away at the very heart of this planet. It destroys individual people, families, cultures, even the earth itself. Our world is defiled by it, yet most people cannot even give a definition of the word, or grasp the true gravity of the situation. What is sin? Surely sin is more that ten different opinions from ten different people. Is there any final authority on this subject?

The Bible says that sin is a heart condition. It is a condition of rebellion against God, which stems from pride. The Bible even refers to pride as "original sin." The Hebrew definition of the word sin means "to miss the mark." God created us to be like Him, but our pride and rebellion make us fall far short of that purpose. Our actions, though they may be "sinful" are really only the fruit of our rebellion against God. Our outward actions merely mirror our true inner condition. It is our true inner condition that God is concerned with. He knows the "real you" better than you yourself do, because he sees "the inner man" and all your secret thoughts and motives.

"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." Hebrews 4:13 (NIV)

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

Though one may lead a "good life" on the outside, God looks on the heart. It is the nature of man to look on the outward, but outward appearances can be deceiving.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matt. 23:27-28

We cannot deal with our sin by "cleaning ourselves up" the outside, when our problem is a heart condition. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." John 8:34 We are all slaves to our sinful nature, and we can only be cleansed from within.

Since sin is the root cause of all our troubles, we must deal with our sin first if we want less troubles in our lives. How do we get rid of sin? God tells us in His Word that by nature we are "...dead in trespasses and sin;" (Ephesians 2:1) and that we are "...alienated from the life of God..." (Ephesians 4:18). Just as a body without physical life is declared physically dead, so anyone who is separated from God is described in the Bible as spiritually dead. As long as we remain spiritually dead, we cannot know God.

We all need a new life. We need to be cleansed from sin and it's penalty (which is death) and restored to fellowship with God who made us all. That is what Jesus Christ (God's Son) meant when He said we "must be born again" (John 3:7). "...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Without the experience of the "new birth" we have no hope of enjoying the glories of heaven nor escaping the terrors of hell. Have you been born again?

The "new birth" is not a religion, not living up to a creed, not a set of rituals, nor joining a church or denomination. It's a transformation. Our old nature is changed and we receive a new one. Old things pass away and all things become new in Christ. We receive a new heart, new desires, new ideas, and a new direction because of this new nature. A birth is the coming into being of a new life which has the nature of its parents. When you were born the first time, you were made a partaker of the nature of natural man. When you are born again, you become a partaker of the divine nature (II Peter 1:4). God can become your heavenly Father.

The greatest attribute of God is that He is a God of love. He loves you and me. He loves all sinners and wants to save every one of us from hell and the terrible results of our sin. His Word tells us, "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). "For He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:21). God hates sin because of what it produces-- war, sickness, poverty, etc., but God loves the sinner.

God sent Jesus Christ, His only Son, so that we might have new, everlasting life. The Bible tells us, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). By His death and resurrection, Jesus paid for our salvation. He broke the power of sin and death, making it possible for us to have everlasting life. The life of God raised Jesus from the dead and He was the first born Son into the kingdom of God.

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:12-18).

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was nailed to a cross by ungodly men for no sin of His own. He was an innocent man-- the only man who was ever perfect and sinless. He never sinned, yet He took your sins and mine by taking an unjust death. Because He did this willingly, He was raised from the dead by His Father and given life and authority over the powers of darkness. God now imparts that same life and authority to all those who come receiving His provision for their sin. "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (I John 1:7)

We must accept God's Word that says we all are sinners and know that it is sin that separates us from God and repent or "turn away" from that sin. Until we each acknowledge, and ask forgiveness for our own guilt, we will never be free from it. It will eventually lead us right into hell.

"The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9)

God wants to give us His power over sin. We cannot conquer sin without that power. God wants to give us life for death, beauty for ashes, health for sickness, joy for grief, peace for strife, love for hate. God's Word says, "...I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). Do you want abundant life? This abundant life comes only as we are born again and as we follow on and receive all that God promises us.

It isn't always easy following God, but nothing worthwhile ever was. You may be ridiculed and persecuted. You will face many temptations to fall back into your old nature. But you can be assured that God is with you, and He will give you power to overcome every one of them.

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Phil 3:7-9

You can pray right now and ask God to come into your heart and receive the new birth. Simply talk to Him as you would talk to another person. You might pray a prayer similar to this:

God, I do not know you personally, but I want to know you. I believe that
Your Word, the Bible is true. I repent for hardening my heart toward you,
and delighting myself in things you hate. I don't want to go to hell; I really
want to be free of my sin. Come into my heart and cleanse me of the guilt
of my sins and give me the power to overcome those sins. I want to be Your
child and learn of Your ways. Keep me from evil and save my soul. Amen

If you said that prayer and meant it from your heart, you are now a child of God. You will need to do four things faithfully every day so you will grow in God.

1. Read God's Word daily.

You need to read and study God's Word (the Bible) every day. This is how you will learn about God's ways and how to overcome your problems and troubles. His Word brings strength to your spiritual nature. If you do not have a Bible, make your first prayer request to God to supply you with one.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15).

"But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:10-17).

2. Pray to God daily.

We must fellowship and talk to God if we are to hear His guidance and learn of His nature. We are promised that all of our needs shall be met if we will only ask the Father in the name of Jesus.

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14: 13-15)

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God , and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matthew 6:33).

3. Seek Water Baptism and Fellowship with like believers.

(1.) Seek out a good Bible-believing church and share your decision to follow Christ with the body of believers there and ask to be water baptized. This will seal your commitment to Christ (See BIBLE ANSWERS for more about water baptism).

Ask the Lord to show you the people you are to pray and fellowship with on a daily basis. He does not want you to be alone in your Christian walk. We all need one another's prayers, encouragement, and love to grow in God.

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching" (Hebrews 10:24-25).

4. Keep your heart pure before the Lord daily.

Ask God to cleanse you of all sin and impure thoughts and motives. Satan, our enemy, will try to break our fellowship with God by getting us back into sin or trying to get us angry at God. Guard against this by resisting the devil daily.

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23).

"Submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

 

If you received the Lord into your heart, welcome to the family of God! If you need help in this new life, e-mail us at ChristUnlimited@bible.com, or write us at:


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To: RochesterFan
I failed to point out that there are neurological and biochemical differences that have been reported in peer-reviewed scientific journals between children who have real ADD and control groups.
381 posted on 12/25/2003 8:37:33 PM PST by RochesterFan
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To: xzins; RochesterFan; drstevej; Dr. Eckleburg
"So my problem isn't with who God is. It with the theologies we've come up with to try to explain how God does all this....calvinism and arminianism."

On the contrary! It is Calvinism that does not try to explain "how God does" send Joseph to Egypt for good, yet his brothers send Joseph to Egypt for evil. We simply accept the statement as is.

Nor are we Calvinists attempting to explain "how God" can pre-determine all the events of the Cross for good, yet all those who physically carried out the murder of Jesus are evil for doing so. We simply accept the statement as is.

As drstevej has frequently said about these passages, "God's sovereignty along side man's responsibility without apology.".

On the other hand, it is the Arminian who dismisses this outright. It is the Arminian who says, "God predetermined everything leading up to and after the crucifixion." (actual FRminian statement) It is the Arminian who attempts to rationalize these two statements by suggesting that since God "forgets" the sins of those who crucified Jesus, that they never really happened because God "knows" everything. (actual FRminian argument) It is the Calvinist on FR who consistently professes God's pre-determined decree of an event along side of man's (very real) responsibility.

xzins, has not God promised to supply our every need? Yet, you still must get up in the morning and earn your way!

Yet we still credit EVERYTHING that we have as gifts from God -even though in the eyes of the world ~I~ earned it all myself.

Likewise, even though Salvation is all of God, the Calvinist wholeheartedly believes that we do have the responsibility to choose Christ and we really do have the responsibility to believe. To the Calvinist -faith is our own faith but at the same time, Christ is the author and finisher of it.

Jean

382 posted on 12/25/2003 8:38:04 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: connectthedots
"I simply think you may be overstating what it means or the HC Q&A misconstrues the Bible on the topic; not that I think it was an intentional misconstruction,"

If the Heidelberg Catechism "misconstrues the Bible on the topic", then I take it you agree with me that the Heidelberg Catechism does indeed teach that God pre-ordains all the sins of all men.

If that is what the HC indeed teaches, then I have conclusively shown that the belief that God has pre-ordained all the sins of all men is not remotely hyper-Calvinistic.

On the other hand, your only hope to continue to claim that the belief that God has pre-ordained all the sins of all men is hyper-Calvinistic is to maintain that I have "overstat[ed] what [the Heidelberg Catechism] means".

Since that is your goal, I suggest that you stick to the issue of the meaning of the Heidelberg Catechism rather than if the HC "misconstrue[d] the Bible on the topic".

So then, just how is it that you think I have "overstat[ed] what [the Heidelberg Catechism] means"?

Jean

383 posted on 12/25/2003 9:03:25 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: Michael Townsend
In short, no.

God invites all (Matthew 11:28), all may come. If they do not come, it is not because He prevents or forbids those who otherwise are willing to come.

That's what Scripture says, and it is all I was saying.

Dan
384 posted on 12/25/2003 9:37:10 PM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: drstevej; xzins
Can you define immutibility in such a way to incorporate your concept of Him being dynamic?

This is the best I could do for now.

I'd say the difference is in categories and is difficult to narrow down to specifics. When I first said God is immutable yet dynamic the first thought that ran through my head was: "Can God create a rock He cannot lift?" That's what I'd call a categorically incorrect question and this immutable yet dynamic thought may seem similar - a paradox, or as you said, like a square circle. As I see it, it's just different categories.

I wasn't sure how else to label the dynamic(discipline/parenting) aspect of God.

As I see it, God has no limitations, can change his mind if desired and the Jeremiah passage seems to support the idea that God wants us to realize He can change his mind.

385 posted on 12/25/2003 9:38:29 PM PST by scripter (The validity of fath is linked to its object)
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To: scripter; RochesterFan; drstevej
". As I see it, God either changed his mind (which doesn't mean He isn't immutable) or God made Jonah a false prophet as determined in Deut. 18:22."

Numbers 23 (NASB)
19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

The Hebrew word translated "repent" is Nacham.

It is the same word translated in the NIV as "relent" in Jeremiah 18:8 and "reconsider" in Jeremiah 18:10.

So, we have the Bible telling us explicitly that God does NOT "repent".

R. Scott Clark says this about the "apparent" contradiction:

Sometimes this accommodation is intensified by the use of anthropomorphism (the application of human behavior to God) or anthropopathism (the application of human emotion to God). Thus, in Scripture, God is sometimes said to have eyes (Zech 2:8) or to travel (Gen 20:3) or to repent (Gen 6:6-7). This sort of language has always been interpreted by the catholic Church to be metaphoric or symbolic not because of pagan a priori notions of God, but because of clear Biblical propositions about God which have been used to interpret the narratives in which God reveals himself anthropomorphically. For example, Scripture teaches clearly that God does not change (Mal 3:6) or repent (Numbers 23:19). Therefore, on the analogy of Scripture and by the analogy of the faith, such clear propositions must interpret what are obviously more difficult passages which seem to ascribe human qualities to God. To do otherwise is to reduce the God of Scripture to an incompetent and worse to an idol.
-from the forward to The Free Offer of the Gospel by John Murray

Hermeneutics 101 -interpret unclear (difficult) passages in the light of clear passages.

God does NOT "change his mind".

Jean

386 posted on 12/25/2003 9:48:32 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (If God foreknew how and when he would change his mind -then he did NOT changed his mind.)
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To: scripter
"1 Samuel 15:35 (might be stretching it - there are many others similar to this one)"

Read just a few verses ahead:

1 Samuel 15 (NASB)
29 Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.

Jean

387 posted on 12/25/2003 9:55:08 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (If God foreknew how and when he would change his mind -then he did NOT changed his mind.)
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To: xzins
The definition of "scripture" is "a sacred writing or book." I don't write "scripture." (It only pays guild minimum.)

Does God "inspire" your sermons, xzins?

388 posted on 12/25/2003 10:22:27 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Jean Chauvin
Maybe ~you~ enjoy the world of denial?

Maybe it doesn't really matter, eh? Whether you think we are robots unto salvation/damnation or, whether I think God gave us a little more liberty than that - when/if we yield unto Him - wouldn't you agree that that is the bottom line?

So then, how can one know whether they have yielded to him?

389 posted on 12/25/2003 10:26:30 PM PST by Ex-Wretch
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To: Jean Chauvin
Read just a few verses ahead

Thanks. I did read the entire context before posting which is one of the reasons it took me so long. As a Bible teacher I am judged more strictly, so I take the responsiblity very seriously and am always sure to check the context.

The book Hard Sayings of the Bible has a section on 1 Samuel 15:29 entitled God Does Not Change His Mind?. As I'm always saying, context is everything. Here's an excerpt from the link:

God is not a frozen automaton who cannot respond to persons; he is a living person who can and does react to others as much, and more genuinely, than we do to each other. Thus the same word repent is used for two different concepts both in this passage and elsewhere in the Bible. One shows God's responsiveness to individuals and the other shows his steadfastness to himself and to his thoughts and designs.

Thus the text affirms that God changed his actions toward Saul in order to remain true to his own character or essence. Repentance in God is not, as it is in us, an evidence of indecisiveness. It is rather a change in his method of responding to another person based on some change in the other individual. The change, then, was in Saul. The problem was with Saul's partial obedience, his wayward heart and covetousness.

To assert that God is unchanging does not mean he cannot experience regret, grief and repentance. If unchangeableness meant transcendent detachment from people and events, God would pay an awful price for immutability. Instead, God enters into a relationship with mortal beings that demonstrates his willingness to respond to each person's action within the ethical sphere of their obedience to his will.

When our sin or repentance changes our relationship with God, his changing responses to us no more affect his essential happiness or blessedness than Christ's deity affected his ability to genuinely suffer on the cross for our sin.

Part of hermeneutics 101 for me is to let the entire Bible interpret itself. As I said above, there are many (thirty something) similar verses that I don't have time to get into. And when you take the Bible as a whole God appears to want us to know he can change His mind, not his essence.

390 posted on 12/25/2003 10:28:26 PM PST by scripter (The validity of fath is linked to its object)
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To: scripter; xzins
FWIW, whenever I post I'll try to remember to use the words perhaps and appears and not use too many direct and specific terms. That's because the more I learn the more I realize I don't really know.

As xzins said in post 305:

I think we just don't understand yet how it all fits together.
That is something I can specifically agree to, something I can definitely agree with. There are many great Bible thinkers on both sides of this issue and I don't want to come across as saying I'm right and whoever disagrees with me is wrong.
391 posted on 12/25/2003 10:50:54 PM PST by scripter (The validity of fath is linked to its object)
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To: scripter
Just realized I had a typo in my tag line...fixing fath = faith.
392 posted on 12/25/2003 11:06:19 PM PST by scripter (The validity of faith is linked to its object)
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Comment #393 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Eckleburg
First, there is the other half of that post...a 2 part question. You answered to the first part that you "don't write scripture."

****And, if it isn't, then what is the difference between THAT control by God and the control that you think He exercises over your words?*****


What do you think is the difference between the control God exercised over John in the penning of words and the control that God exercises over you in the penning of words? (same question as above.)
394 posted on 12/26/2003 6:41:55 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
Does God control our destiny?

I don't see that being the same as "Does God DECIDE our destiny for us?" Do you?


You don't see the difference between God controlling our destiny and deciding our destiny? I believe God controls our destiny, that is, He directs our destiny. A few Biblical examples: Moses, Jonah, David, the disciples, Saul/Paul. Current example? You. Did you decide to become a pastor or did God call you according to His will, in His time, according to His terms?

Even in the passage from James that you quote James says, 17 So any person who knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin.

Yes, but having the knowledge to do what is right and doing wrong does not change our destiny.

WHO is responsible for the decision to do what is right? Why it's each person, isn't it?

Our decisions MATTER. They are significant. They are consequential. AND we are responsible for them.

This is quite, quite different than saying that "God has DESTINED bad decisions."


Yes, in our finite understanding our decisions matter and we are responsible for those decisions. That being said, do our decisions change the will of God or actually change the destiny which God has laid out before us? If we say yes, then God is non-omnipotent, IOW, God lacks unlimited authority and/or influence over His creation and thus not God.

The Lord willing, I will go to visit my family tomorrow on Christmas day. It is arrogant AND unfaithful for me to see life excluding the Lord. It is always a possibility that the Lord will have something else for me to do tomorrow. And I should be open to His urging.

That is quite a bit different than saying "destiny controls."

"Responsive to the Lord" or "controlled by destiny."

I choose "responsive to the Lord."


So who is in control? You or God?
395 posted on 12/26/2003 7:08:30 AM PST by snerkel
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To: snerkel
The discussions from about 300 to your 395 are applicable to our discussion, Snerk.

I'm gonna have to run cook a late breakfast for my lovely wife.....:>) (Something I promised.)

Look those over and see where the discussion has gone since you and I wrote these questions. I will get back to this.

X
396 posted on 12/26/2003 7:13:45 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: snerkel
***Yes, in our finite understanding our decisions matter and we are responsible for those decisions. That being said, do our decisions change the will of God or actually change the destiny which God has laid out before us? If we say yes, then God is non-omnipotent, IOW, God lacks unlimited authority and/or influence over His creation and thus not God.***

Well stated snerkel.
397 posted on 12/26/2003 7:14:42 AM PST by drstevej
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To: snerkel; drstevej; xzins
That being said, do our decisions change the will of God or actually change the destiny which God has laid out before us? If we say yes, then God is non-omnipotent, IOW, God lacks unlimited authority and/or influence over His creation and thus not God.

But if we say 'no', it does not prove that God in fact imposes His sovereign will to alter or direct every decision we make.

God can and does permit us to make bad decisions and God can permit a destiny which is the culminaton of a lifetime of bad decisions and use that to demonstrate His justice.

God can and does use the consequences of bad decisions in the life of a believer as trials which refine and sanctify.

Likewise, God can use everything for our good and condition the reward we receive in Heaven based on our works and use that to demonstrate His mercy.

God knows and predestines our lives, orders our steps, plans good works for us, but not regardless of the decisions He foreknows we will make with the free (albeit impaired after the fall) will He has given us.

I'm not arguing God is conditioned by our choices. No.

But that He mysteriously weaves our decisions into His plan. So seamlessly that it appears to the undiscerning to be 'our plan' though it is in fact 'His plan' to accomplish His purposes, but using our decisions in part.

398 posted on 12/26/2003 8:16:41 AM PST by Starwind (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
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To: scripter
Free? FREE?

We need to talk. LOL
399 posted on 12/26/2003 8:34:06 AM PST by snerkel
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To: Starwind
But that He mysteriously weaves our decisions into His plan. So seamlessly that it appears to the undiscerning to be 'our plan' though it is in fact 'His plan' to accomplish His purposes, but using our decisions in part.

This blind worship of man's alleged free will is getting funnier all of the time. Do you think God "mysteriously weaved [Saul's] decisions into His plans", or did God knock Saul down to the ground and mess with his plans to persecute Christians?

Was God willing to wait millions of years if necessary for Adam & Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit?

If God "mysteriously weaves His plan" into our "free will decisions", then can you explain the virgin birth? What decision did Mary make to carry the Christ child? And before you go about saying that "Mary chose to carry the baby", do you think that God was going to abort the Christ child if she said "no"? Furthermore, the geneaologies of Joseph and Mary both point back to David. How many couples, both in the kingly line of David (he of the legal line, she of the blood line) where the woman was still a virgin were going to Bethlehem at that time? Where was God going to go next?

Tell me all about Judas, and his "free will"? What if Judas used his "free will choice" not to turn Jesus Christ in at the proper time and place so that Christ could both observe the Passover and be the Passover sacrifice?

In Romans, Paul tells us how Pharaoh was stirred by God, it wasn't God making wild guesses to Pharaoh would do and then react.

What if Noah didn't build the ark? Who else was going to do it?

Jeremiah the prophet declared that, if needed, God will call a stranger from the East to do His counsel. That is a declaration that God doesn't "mysteriously weave" His Will in reaction to our will. Your proposal make God subservient and contingent on Man. You have God, albeit with the advantage of time transcedancy, always working a Plan 'B'. If man is driving the cart, then God is not in control. If God is not in control, then His perfect will cannot be accomplished, for it must always be reacting to every whim and fancy of man.

This devotion to free will at the expense of making God play catch-up, is shockingly disturbing.

400 posted on 12/26/2003 8:57:22 AM PST by Dr Warmoose (From the Torquemada Chair of Tolerance)
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