Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

To: xzins; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; jude24; ...
I draw lines because the Bible upholds reality and the consequences of decisions.

I think you labor under the false impression that Calvinists deny that man has a will and deny that man makes decisions that have consequences.

The Scriptures teach that the natural man does indeed possess a will. That will is not free to make any possible choice, but is constrained by the man's nature. Because the natural man is dead in trespasses and sin, reaching out to God is foolishness to him. Continued sin is the natural man's willing choice. The wages of that choice are death and the wrath of God. God is completely holy, just, and righteous in dispensing that punishment

Martin Luther aptly noted that if any being had true libertarian free will that being was God. However, he noted that even God's will is self-constrained by His nature. God is holy and will not act in a sinful manner. In that sense His will is self constrained. The Scriptures repeatedly teach that God decreed man's evil to achieve His own purposes. In each instance, God's motives are holy and He is above reproach. In each instance man's motives are selfish and evil and therefore, justify his punishment. Genesis 50 shows us that God decreed Joseph should go to Egypt. He used the means of the sin of Joseph's brothers. In all this, God was holy, righteous, and just. In all this, Joseph's brothers were guilty. Likewise, God ordained the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to redeem His people. He decreed the use of means - the betrayal of Judas and the bogus trial and crucifixion ant the hands of His creation. In all this God was holy, just, and righteous. In each case, the men involved willingly carried out God's decree but for their own selfish reasons, and therefore, are justly convicted of their sin.

The whole point of John 6:35-65 is that men must be drawn by the Father to come to Christ. The nature of a natural man precludes such an autonomous choice. When God draws, he gives the man a new nature. With the new nature the choice is both willing and "a no brainer." The gift of life and a new nature to a dead sinner is not what someone has termed "cosmic rape" but rather the ultimate gift -  life itself.  The natural man cannot demand this gift. He can demand his wages - punishment and the wrath of God for his sin. God has no obligation to give the gift of life to any man. Grace and mercy are gifts of God, to whom He can give or withhold to suit His own purposes. God's will always trumps man' will. God reveals His will and His thinking in the Scriptures. In Rev 5:9, we see that Christ is worthy of worship by all because he purchased His people with His blood. This brings glory to His name. In Rom 9 God reveals His purpose in creating those He did not choose. Because of His just punishment for those not redeemed by Christ is to show His justice, and to give meaning to His Grace and Mercy and Love to His people. In all this God is Holy, Just, and Righteous. As created beings, neither the believer nor the unbeliever has any intrinsic right to make demands of God. He is the potter and we are merely clay.

No Calvinist I have met who has really considered these matters is one by personal preference. We accept these matters because the Scriptures teach them. Augustine understood this. Luther understood this. Calvin understood this. None of these men are authors of the doctrine, but merely men who saw the truth of the Word.

254 posted on 12/25/2003 9:55:01 AM PST by RochesterFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 236 | View Replies ]


To: RochesterFan
Well-put.

I think some Calvinists themselves have muddied the issue, though, for non-Calvinists — particularly those who've recently come to see the Biblical doctrines of grace. I've had brotherly arguments with a fellow at church who will not use the word "decision." This same earnest brother amicably challenged me once when I preached that, if my hearers refused to come to Christ, the constraint is in themselves, not in God. Nor is this brother at all alone in that.

Dan
To Tell the Truth, Virginia...

257 posted on 12/25/2003 10:19:15 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies ]

To: RochesterFan; xzins
Continued sin is the natural man's willing choice.

And self-deception.

Arminians miss the most important point of all -- all creation leads up to the Cross. All future history flows from the Cross. Calvary is the reason for man's very existence..

Man's fall; Moses's journey; Christ's betrayal -- ALL happened as God willed in order for God to glorify Himself by the Resurrection.

We are all part of that plan.

258 posted on 12/25/2003 10:33:23 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies ]

To: RochesterFan
I'm not talking about will. I'm talking about reality.

Let me ask a question I asked last night of someone or other, but I got no response.

If you have/had teenage drivers in your house, would you talk to them about drinking and driving? Why or why not?

296 posted on 12/25/2003 4:40:30 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies ]

To: RochesterFan
I'm not talking about will. I'm talking about reality. But I do sense you're trying to understand where I'm at.

Let me ask a question I asked last night of someone or other, but I got no response because it was so late.

If you had teenage drivers in your house, would you talk to them about drinking and driving? Why or why not?

297 posted on 12/25/2003 5:02:47 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 254 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson