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Finding Darwin's God OR Evolution and Christianity are Compatible
Brown Alumni Magazine ^ | November, 1999 | Kenneth Miller

Posted on 02/02/2005 6:19:41 PM PST by curiosity

The great hall of the Hynes Convention Center in Boston looks nothing like a church. And yet I sat there, smiling amid an audience of scientists, shaking my head and laughing to myself as I remembered another talk, given long ago, inside a church to an audience of children.

Without warning, I had experienced one of those moments in the present that connects with the scattered recollections of our past. Psychologists tell us that things happen all the time. Five thousand days of childhood are filed, not in chronological order, but as bits and pieces linked by words, or sounds, or even smells that cause us to retrieve them for no apparent reason when something "refreshes" our memory. And just like that, a few words in a symposium on developmental biology had brought me back to the day before my first communion. I was eight years old, sitting with the boys on the right side of our little church (the girls sat on the left), and our pastor was speaking.

Putting the finishing touches on a year of preparation for the sacrament, Father Murphy sought to impress us with the reality of God's power in the world. He pointed to the altar railing, its polished marble gleaming in sunlight, and firmly assured us that God himself had fashioned it. "Yeah, right," whispered the kid next to me. Worried that there might be the son or daughter of a stonecutter in the crowd, the good Father retreated a bit. "Now, he didn't carve the railing or bring it here or cement it in place. . . but God himself made the marble, long ago, and left it for someone to find and make into part of our church."

I don't know if our pastor sensed that his description of God as craftsman was meeting a certain tide of skepticism, but no matter. He had another trick up his sleeve, a can't-miss, sure-thing argument that, no doubt, had never failed him. He walked over to the altar and picked a flower from the vase.

"Look at the beauty of a flower," he began. "The Bible tells us that even Solomon in all his glory was never arrayed as one of these. And do you know what? Not a single person in the world can tell us what makes a flower bloom. All those scientists in their laboratories, the ones who can split the atom and build jet planes and televisions, well, not one of them can tell you how a plant makes flowers." And why should they be able to? "Flowers, just like you, are the work of God."

I was impressed. No one argued, no one wisecracked. We filed out of the church like good little boys and girls, ready for our first communion the next day. And I never thought of it again, until this symposium on developmental biology. Sandwiched between two speakers working on more fashionable topics in animal development was Elliot M. Meyerowitz, a plant scientist at Caltech. A few of my colleagues, uninterested in research dealing with plants, got up to stretch their legs before the final talk, but I sat there with an ear-to-ear grin on my face. I jotted notes furiously; I sketched the diagrams he projected on the screen and wrote additional speculations of my own in the margins. Meyerowitz, you see, had explained how plants make flowers.

The four principal parts of a flower - sepals, petals, stamens, and pistils - are actually modified leaves. This is one of the reasons why plants can produce reproductive cells just about anywhere, while animals are limited to a very specific set of reproductive organs. Your little finger isn't going to start shedding reproductive cells anytime soon. But in springtime, the tip of any branch on an apple tree may very well blossom and begin scattering pollen. Plants can produce new flowers anywhere they can grow new leaves. Somehow, however, the plant must find a way to "tell" an ordinary cluster of leaves that they should develop into floral parts. That's where Meyerowitz's lab took over.

Several years of patient genetic study had isolated a set of mutants that could only form two or three of the four parts. By crossing the various mutants, his team was able to identify four genes that had to be turned on or off in a specific pattern to produce a normal flower. Each of these genes, in turn, sets off a series of signals that "tell" the cells of a brand new bud to develop as sepals or petals rather than ordinary leaves. The details are remarkable, and the interactions between the genes are fascinating. To me, sitting in the crowd thirty-seven years after my first communion, the scientific details were just the icing on the cake. The real message was "Father Murphy, you were wrong." God doesn't make a flower. The floral induction genes do.

Our pastor's error, common and widely repeated, was to seek God in what science has not yet explained. His assumption was that God is best found in territory unknown, in the corners of darkness that have not yet seen the light of understanding. These, as it turns out, are exactly the wrong places to look.

By pointing to the process of making a flower as proof of the reality of God, Father Murphy was embracing the idea that God finds it necessary to cripple nature. In his view, the blooming of a daffodil requires not a self-sufficient material universe, but direct intervention by God. We can find God, therefore, in the things around us that lack material, scientific explanations. In nature, elusive and unexplored, we will find the Creator at work.

The creationist opponents of evolution make similar arguments. They claim that the existence of life, the appearance of new species, and, most especially, the origins of mankind have not and cannot be explained by evolution or any other natural process. By denying the self-sufficiency of nature, they look for God (or at least a "designer") in the deficiencies of science. The trouble is that science, given enough time, generally explains even the most baffling things. As a matter of strategy, creationists would be well-advised to avoid telling scientists what they will never be able to figure out. History is against them. In a general way, we really do understand how nature works.

And evolution forms a critical part of that understanding. Evolution really does explain the very things that its critics say it does not. Claims disputing the antiquity of the earth, the validity of the fossil record, and the sufficiency of evolutionary mechanisms vanish upon close inspection. Even to the most fervent anti-evolutionists, the pattern should be clear - their favorite "gaps" are filling up: the molecular mechanisms of evolution are now well-understood, and the historical record of evolution becomes more compelling with each passing season. This means that science can answer their challenges to evolution in an obvious way. Show the historical record, provide the data, reveal the mechanism, and highlight the convergence of theory and fact.

There is, however, a deeper problem caused by the opponents of evolution, a problem for religion. Like our priest, they have based their search for God on the premise that nature is not self-sufficient. By such logic, only God can make a species, just as Father Murphy believed only God could make a flower. Both assertions support the existence of God only so long as these assertions are true, but serious problems for religion emerge when they are shown to be false.

If we accept a lack of scientific explanation as proof for God's existence, simple logic would dictate that we would have to regard a successful scientific explanation as an argument against God. That's why creationist reasoning, ultimately, is much more dangerous to religion than to science. Elliot Meyerowitz's fine work on floral induction suddenly becomes a threat to the divine, even though common sense tells us it should be nothing of the sort. By arguing, as creationists do, that nature cannot be self-sufficient in the formation of new species, the creationists forge a logical link between the limits of natural processes to accomplish biological change and the existence of a designer (God). In other words, they show the proponents of atheism exactly how to disprove the existence of God - show that evolution works, and it's time to tear down the temple. This is an offer that the enemies of religion are all too happy to accept.

Putting it bluntly, the creationists have sought God in darkness. What we have not found and do not yet understand becomes their best - indeed their only - evidence for the divine. As a Christian, I find the flow of this logic particularly depressing. Not only does it teach us to fear the acquisition of knowledge (which might at any time disprove belief), but it suggests that God dwells only in the shadows of our understanding. I suggest that, if God is real, we should be able to find him somewhere else - in the bright light of human knowledge, spiritual and scientific.

Each of the great Western monotheistic traditions sees God as truth, love, and knowledge. This should mean that each and every increase in our understanding of the natural world is a step toward God and not, as many people assume, a step away. If faith and reason are both gifts from God, then they should play complementary, not conflicting, roles in our struggle to understand the world around us. As a scientist and as a Christian, that is exactly what I believe. True knowledge comes only from a combination of faith and reason.

A nonbeliever, of course, puts his or her trust in science and finds no value in faith. And I certainly agree that science allows believer and nonbeliever alike to investigate the natural world through a common lens of observation, experiment, and theory. The ability of science to transcend cultural, political, and even religious differences is part of its genius, part of its value as a way of knowing. What science cannot do is assign either meaning or purpose to the world it explores. This leads some to conclude that the world as seen by science is devoid of meaning and absent of purpose. It is not. What it does mean, I would suggest, is that our human tendency to assign meaning and value must transcend science and, ultimately, must come from outside it. The science that results can thus be enriched and informed from its contact with the values and principles of faith. The God of Abraham does not tell us which proteins control the cell cycle. But he does give us a reason to care, a reason to cherish that understanding, and above all, a reason to prefer the light of knowledge to the darkness of ignorance.

As more than one scientist has said, the truly remarkable thing about the world is that it actually does make sense. The parts fit, the molecules interact, the darn thing works. To people of faith, what evolution says is that nature is complete. Their God fashioned a material world in which truly free and independent beings could evolve. He got it right the very first time.

To some, the murderous reality of human nature is proof that God is absent or dead. The same reasoning would find God missing from the unpredictable branchings of an evolutionary tree. But the truth is deeper. In each case, a deity determined to establish a world that was truly independent of his whims, a world in which intelligent creatures would face authentic choices between good and evil, would have to fashion a distinct, material reality and then let his creation run. Neither the self-sufficiency of nature nor the reality of evil in the world mean God is absent. To a religious person, both signify something quite different - the strength of God's love and the reality of our freedom as his creatures.

As a species, we like to see ourselves as the best and brightest. We are the intended, special, primary creatures of creation. We sit at the apex of the evolutionary tree as the ultimate products of nature, self-proclaimed and self-aware. We like to think that evolution's goal was to produce us.

In a purely biological sense, this comforting view of our own position in nature is false, a product of self-inflating distortion induced by the imperfect mirrors we hold up to life. Yes, we are objectively among the most complex of animals, but not in every sense. Among the systems of the body, we are the hands-down winners for physiological complexity in just one place - the nervous system - and even there, a nonprimate (the dolphin) can lay down a claim that rivals our own.

More to the point, any accurate assessment of the evolutionary process shows that the notion of one form of life being more highly evolved than another is incorrect. Every organism, every cell that lives today, is the descendant of a long line of winners, of ancestors who used successful evolutionary strategies time and time again, and therefore lived to tell about it - or, at least, to reproduce. The bacterium perched on the lip of my coffee cup has been through as much evolution as I have. I've got the advantage of size and consciousness, which matter when I write about evolution, but the bacterium has the advantage of numbers, of flexibility, and most especially, of reproductive speed. That single bacterium, given the right conditions, could literally fill the world with its descendants in a matter of days. No human, no vertebrate, no animal could boast of anything remotely as impressive.

What evolution tells us is that life spreads out along endless branching pathways from any starting point. One of those tiny branches eventually led to us. We think it remarkable and wonder how it could have happened, but any fair assessment of the tree of life shows that our tiny branch is crowded into insignificance by those that bolted off in a thousand different directions. Our species, Homo sapiens, has not "triumphed" in the evolutionary struggle any more than has a squirrel, a dandelion, or a mosquito. We are all here, now, and that's what matters. We have all followed different pathways to find ourselves in the present. We are all winners in the game of natural selection. Current winners, we should be careful to say.

That, in the minds of many, is exactly the problem. In a thousand branching pathways, how can we be sure that one of them, historically and unavoidably, would lead for sure to us? Consider this: we mammals now occupy, in most ecosystems, the roles of large, dominant land animals. But for much of their history, mammals were restricted to habitats in which only very small creatures could survive. Why? Because another group of vertebrates dominated the earth - until, as Stephen Jay Gould has pointed out, the cataclysmic impact of a comet or asteroid drove those giants to extinction. "In an entirely literal sense," Gould has written, "we owe our existence, as large and reasoning animals, to our lucky stars."

So, what if the comet had missed? What if our ancestors, and not dinosaurs, had been the ones driven to extinction? What if, during the Devonian period, the small tribe of fish known as rhipidistians had been obliterated? Vanishing with them would have been the possibility of life for the first tetrapods. Vertebrates might never have struggled onto the land, leaving it, in Gould's words, forever "the unchallenged domain of insects and flowers."

Surely this means that mankind's appearance on this planet was not pre-ordained, that we are here not as the products of an inevitable procession of evolutionary success, but as an afterthought, a minor detail, a happenstance in a history that might just as well have left us out. What follows from this, to skeptic and true believer alike, is a conclusion whose logic is rarely challenged - that no God would ever have used such a process to fashion his prize creatures. How could he have been sure that leaving the job to evolution would lead things to working out the "right" way? If it was God's will to produce us, then by showing that we are the products of evolution, we would rule God as Creator. Therein lies the value or the danger of evolution.

Not so fast. The biological account of lucky historical contingencies that led to our own appearance on this planet is surely accurate. What does not follow is that a perceived lack of inevitability translates into something that we should regard as incompatibility with a divine will. To do so seriously underestimates God, even as this God is understood by the most conventional of Western religions.

Yes, the explosive diversification of life on this planet was an unpredictable process. But so were the rise of Western civilization, the collapse of the Roman Empire, and the winning number in last night's lottery. We do not regard the indeterminate nature of any of these events in human history as antithetical to the existence of a Creator; why should we regard similar events in natural history any differently? There is, I would submit, no reason at all. If we can view the contingent events in the families that produced our individual lives as consistent with a Creator, then certainly we can do the same for the chain of circumstances that produced our species.

The alternative is a world where all events have predictable outcomes, where the future is open neither to chance nor to independent human action. A world in which we would always evolve is a world in which we would never be free. To a believer, the particular history leading to us shows how truly remarkable we are, how rare is the gift of consciousness, and how precious is the chance to understand.

One would like to think that all scientific ideas, including evolution, would rise or fall purely on the basis of the evidence. If that were true, evolution would long since have passed, in the public mind, from controversy into common sense, which is exactly what has happened within the scientific community. This is, unfortunately, not the case - evolution remains, in the minds of much of the American public, a dangerous idea, and for biology educators, a source of never-ending strife.

I believe much of the problem is the fault of those in the scientific community who routinely enlist the findings of evolutionary biology in support their own philosophical pronouncements. Sometimes these take the form of stern, dispassionate pronouncements about the meaninglessness of life. Other times we are lectured that the contingency of our presence on this planet invalidates any sense of human purpose. And very often we are told that the raw reality of nature strips the authority from any human system of morality.

As creatures fashioned by evolution, we are filled, as the biologist E. O. Wilson has said, with instinctive behaviors important to the survival of our genes. Some of these behaviors, though favored by natural selection, can get us into trouble. Our desires for food, water, reproduction, and status, our willingness to fight, and our tendencies to band together into social groups, can all be seen as behaviors that help ensure evolutionary success. Sociobiology, which studies the biological basis of social behaviors, tells us that in some circumstances natural selection will favor cooperative and nurturing instincts - "nice" genes that help us get along together. Some circumstances, on the other had, will favor aggressive self-centered behaviors, ranging all the way from friendly competition to outright homicide. Could such Darwinian ruthlessness be part of the plan of a loving God?

Yes, it could. To survive on this planet, the genes of our ancestors, like those of any other organism, had to produce behaviors that protected, nurtured, defended, and ensured the reproductive successes of the individuals that bore them. It should be no surprise that we carry such passions within us, and Darwinian biology cannot be faulted for giving their presence a biological explanation. Indeed, the Bible itself gives ample documentation of such human tendencies, including pride, selfishness, lust, anger, aggression, and murder.

Darwin can hardly be criticized for pinpointing the biological origins of these drives. All too often, in finding the sources of our "original sins," in fixing the reasons why our species displays the tendencies it does, evolution is misconstrued as providing a kind of justification for the worst aspects of human nature. At best, this is a misreading of the scientific lessons of sociobiology. At worst, it is an attempt to misuse biology to abolish any meaningful system of morality. Evolution may explain the existence of our most basic biological drives and desires, but that does not tell us that it is always proper to act on them. Evolution has provided me with a sense of hunger when my nutritional resources are running low, but evolution does not justify my clubbing you over the head to swipe your lunch. Evolution explains our biology, but it does not tell us what is good, or right, or moral. For those answers, however informed we may be by biology, we must look somewhere else.

Like it or not, the values that any of us apply to our daily lives have been affected by the work of Charles Darwin. Religious people, however, have a special question to put to the reclusive naturalist of Down House. Did his work ultimately contribute to the greater glory of God, or did he deliver human nature and destiny into the hands of a professional scientific class, one profoundly hostile to religion? Does Darwin's work strengthen or weaken the idea of God?

The conventional wisdom is that whatever one may think of his science, having Mr. Darwin around certainly hasn't helped religion very much. The general thinking is that religion has been weakened by Darwinism and has been constrained to modify its view of the Creator in order to twist doctrine into conformity with the demands of evolution. As Stephen Jay Gould puts it, with obvious delight,"Now the conclusions of science must be accepted a priori, and religious interpretations must be finessed and adjusted to match unimpeachable results from the magisterium of natural knowledge!" Science calls the tune, and religion dances to its music.

This sad specter of a weakened and marginalized God drives the continuing opposition to evolution. This is why the God of the creationists requires, above all, that evolution be shown not to have functioned in the past and not to be working now. To free religion from the tyranny of Darwinism, creationists need a science that shows nature to be incomplete; they need a history of life whose events can only be explained as the result of supernatural processes. Put bluntly, the creationists are committed to finding permanent, intractable mystery in nature. To such minds, even the most perfect being we can imagine would not have been perfect enough to fashion a creation in which life would originate and evolve on its own. Nature must be flawed, static, and forever inadequate.

Science in general, and evolutionary science in particular, gives us something quite different. It reveals a universe that is dynamic, flexible, and logically complete. It presents a vision of life that spreads across the planet with endless variety and intricate beauty. It suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself.

It is often said that a Darwinian universe is one whose randomness cannot be reconciled with meaning. I disagree. A world truly without meaning would be one in which a deity pulled the string of every human puppet, indeed of every material particle. In such a world, physical and biological events would be carefully controlled, evil and suffering could be minimized, and the outcome of historical processes strictly regulated. All things would move toward the Creator's clear, distinct, established goals. Such control and predictability, however, comes at the price of independence. Always in control, such a Creator would deny his creatures any real opportunity to know and worship him - authentic love requires freedom, not manipulation. Such freedom is best supplied by the open contingency of evolution.

One hundred and fifty years ago it might have been impossible not to couple Darwin to a grim and pointless determinism, but things look different today. Darwin's vision has expanded to encompass a new world of biology in which the links from molecule to cell and from cell to organism are becoming clear. Evolution prevails, but it does so with a richness and subtlety its original theorist may have found surprising and could not have anticipated.

We know from astronomy, for example, that the universe had a beginning, from physics that the future is both open and unpredictable, from geology and paleontology that the whole of life has been a process of change and transformation. From biology we know that our tissues are not impenetrable reservoirs of vital magic, but a stunning matrix of complex wonders, ultimately explicable in terms of biochemistry and molecular biology. With such knowledge we can see, perhaps for the first time, why a Creator would have allowed our species to be fashioned by the process of evolution.

If he so chose, the God whose presence is taught by most Western religions could have fashioned anything, ourselves included, ex nihilo, from his wish alone. In our childhood as a species, that might have been the only way in which we could imagine the fulfillment of a divine will. But we've grown up, and something remarkable has happened: we have begun to understand the physical basis of life itself. If a string of constant miracles were needed for each turn of the cell cycle or each flicker of a cilium, the hand of God would be written directly into every living thing - his presence at the edge of the human sandbox would be unmistakable. Such findings might confirm our faith, but they would also undermine our independence. How could we fairly choose between God and man when the presence and the power of the divine so obviously and so literally controlled our every breath? Our freedom as his creatures requires a little space and integrity. In the material world, it requires self-sufficiency and consistency with the laws of nature.

Evolution is neither more nor less than the result of respecting the reality and consistency of the physical world over time. To fashion material beings with an independent physical existence, any Creator would have had to produce an independent material universe in which our evolution over time was a contingent possibility. A believer in the divine accepts that God's love and gift of freedom are genuine - so genuine that they include the power to choose evil and, if we wish, to freely send ourselves to Hell. Not all believers will accept the stark conditions of that bargain, but our freedom to act has to have a physical and biological basis. Evolution and its sister sciences of genetics and molecular biology provide that basis. In biological terms, evolution is the only way a Creator could have made us the creatures we are - free beings in a world of authentic and meaningful moral and spiritual choices.

Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another. But I do claim that to a believer, even in the most traditional sense, evolutionary biology is not at all the obstacle we often believe it to be. In many respects, evolution is the key to understanding our relationship with God.

When I have the privilege of giving a series of lectures on evolutionary biology to my freshman students, I usually conclude those lectures with a few remarks about the impact of evolutionary theory on other fields, from economics to politics to religion. I find a way to make clear that I do not regard evolution, properly understood, as either antireligious or antispiritual. Most students seem to appreciate those sentiments. They probably figure that Professor Miller, trying to be a nice guy and doubtlessly an agnostic, is trying to find a way to be unequivocal about evolution without offending the University chaplain.

There are always a few who find me after class and want to pin me down. They ask me point-blank: "Do you believe in God?"

And I tell each of them, "Yes."

Puzzled, they ask: "What kind of God?"

Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: creationism; crevolist; darwinism; evolution; intelligentdesign
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To: DannyTN

s-Why would a common designer (God) who is so knowledgeable leave out the ability to synthesize vitamin C in both chimps and humans?


d-It could be due to the fallen state. That ability to synthesize vitamin C may have been lost. There is evidence that animals are degrading due to negative mutations as well. It's possible the same negative mutation occurred in Chimps as well as Humans. Guinea Pigs have also lost that ability.

When discussing science, "could be" is called a hypothesis. Evolution is a fact with a well supported theory explaining that observed fact. "Negative mutations" are eliminated from the population by natural selection.
In this case, chimps and humans had to compensate with behavioral dietary change to survive.
Does God think Chimps are in a fallen state? I don't think so.

d-God could have other reasons as well, but I don't know what those might be.

Yeah, well science has some pretty good explanations of how segments of DNA get cut. I didn't notice any Bible verses referring to vitamin C uptake.

d-Under evolutionary theory, you would thing that the ability to synthesize vitamin C would have been selected over not being able to. But that's not what we see. We see the loss of functionality.

No, sometimes things do not go towards progress. If a population can survive with compensating factors it does. Obviously, the elimination of vitamin C synthesizing gene
was compensated by dietary and behavioral changes.

Study parasites if you want to see evolution with loss of function. The parasites ability to survive was enhanced by not needing digestive systems or eyes etc.

Look at fish that have evolved in caves. Many of them are blind or don't have eyes at all. It is absurd to think God plucked their eyes out because of sin.


101 posted on 02/02/2005 8:33:08 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
The proto-dinosaurs were carnivorous and bipedal.

Wait a minute. If proto-dinosaurs were bipedal and carnivorous, what did they eat? There must have been some contemporaneous herbivorous proto-dinosaurs, no? Or did they they ate herbivors of a different order/phylum?

102 posted on 02/02/2005 8:33:10 PM PST by curiosity
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To: PatrickHenry
Degenerating thread placemarker.

You are hereby nominated for the "Most Sensational Example of Understatement used in a Placemarker in the History of FR"....

After reading some of the posts on this thread, I'm tempted to look for the dialogue from Monty Python's "Dead Parrot" sketch with John Cleese and Michael Palin, and post it in response to the feather-brained nonsense.

103 posted on 02/02/2005 8:33:57 PM PST by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
Degenerating thread placemarker.

You are hereby nominated for the "Most Sensational Example of Understatement used in a Placemarker in the History of FR"....

After reading some of the posts on this thread, I'm tempted to look for the dialogue from Monty Python's "Dead Parrot" sketch with John Cleese and Michael Palin, and post it in response to the feather-brained nonsense.

104 posted on 02/02/2005 8:33:59 PM PST by longshadow
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To: RaceBannon

In reality, the peer review process rejects papers that are not science. That is why ICR and the others can't publish their nonsense.


105 posted on 02/02/2005 8:35:26 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: DannyTN; shubi
Since neither the KJV nor the NIV are in Hebrew, neither is the last word on the subject. Let's see what our resident Hebrew expert has to say.
106 posted on 02/02/2005 8:38:23 PM PST by curiosity
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To: RaceBannon
You cannot listen to both God and the evolutionists! They do not teach the same thing! If Genesis chapter 1 is true (and it is!), then evolution is false.

You are absolutely right.

These attempts to reconcile evolution with Biblical Christianity are nothing but self deceit.

I used to be a dedicated evolutionist.

Thank God, the Lord opened my eyes to the truth! That was more than 30 years ago. I will never return to the blindness of evolution again.

107 posted on 02/02/2005 8:39:33 PM PST by Jorge
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To: curiosity

What is the question?


108 posted on 02/02/2005 8:40:54 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: Jorge

You will never be a biologist, either. ;-)


109 posted on 02/02/2005 8:41:44 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: shubi
Does Genesis 2:19-20, taken literally, state that God animals after Adam?
110 posted on 02/02/2005 8:42:56 PM PST by curiosity
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To: shubi


Shubi - I think you're missing the point. One dosen't need a bunch of highfalutin booklearnin' when the truth is passed directly from the almighty. But I do have one question I've never heard addressed (and this isn't directed only to you, others may be able to answer it): If God is omnipotent, why did he have to rest?


111 posted on 02/02/2005 8:43:12 PM PST by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now in your spare time!)
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To: shubi
Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.

"Darwin clearly rejected Christianity and virtually all conventional arguments in defense of the existence of God and human immortality." In his own autobiography, Darwin admitted that his evolutionary beliefs gradually made the Bible unbelievable to him and said "Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true."

112 posted on 02/02/2005 8:44:00 PM PST by Jorge
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To: shubi
Woops. That's, does Gensis 2:19-20, literally, in the original Hebrew, indicate that God created animals after creating man?
113 posted on 02/02/2005 8:44:16 PM PST by curiosity
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To: shubi
You will never be a biologist, either. ;-)

How would you know? Biology was always one of my best subjects in school and I graduated with a perfect 4.0 GPA at the top of my college class.

The greatest wisdom I EVER found was when I found Christ.

114 posted on 02/02/2005 8:46:16 PM PST by Jorge
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To: shubi

Then why do they accept evolution which is based on a theory that has been disproven time and time again?

The human and hominid fossil record alone prove evolution is false, yet those documents get peer reviewed!

11.) Let's turn to the origin of man, and specifically, the fossil record of `Man'. Many people believe we have `proof' of evolution through the fossil record, yet is this true? What is the facts surrounding fossils that are presumed to portray man?

Ramapithicus, often pictured as walking erect, has been degrade to the status of extinct ape. It's teeth and dental characteristics are similar to the gelada gibbon.(Richard Leaky/Roger Lewin Origins P.68). It has also been declared to be part of orangutan lineage.(Science News Vol 121 #5 Jan 30, 1982 P.84)

12.) Australopithecine: Not a missing link, but an extinct ape. Dr. Charles Oxnard, U. of Chicago says, " These fossils clearly differ more from both humans and African apes, than these two living groups from each other. "The Australopithecines are unique." (Fossils, Teeth, and Sex: New Perspectives on human evolution; Seattle U. of Wash Press)

13.) Lucy has been compared to modem pygmy chimpanzees. Paleontologist Adrienne Zihlman, Univ. of Cal at Santa Cruz:( Lucy's fossil remains match up remarkably well with the bones of a pygmy chimp,(although there are some differences)). Adrienne Zihlman, "Pygmy chimps and pundits", New Scientist Vol 104 #1430 Nov 15, 1984 P.39-40

14.) Homo habilis was once called a missing link between Australopithecus and homo erectus, and a missing link between ape and man. Current conclusions are a chimpanzee, orangutan, or an Australopithecine. (Albert W. Mehlert, "Homo Habilis Dethroned", Contrast: The creation evolution controversy Vol 6 #6)

15.) Sianthropus, or Peking Man, was found in China in the 20's and 30's. Evidence included skulls and a few limb bones, but were lost during W.W.II. Clear evidence at the same site showed true man along with a 30 ft. deep ash pile and a limestone mine. All of the skulls of Sianthropus were broken in the same manner as those of monkeys who are eaten for their brains.(Ian Taylor, "In the Minds of Men: Darwin and the World Order", Toronto Canada, TFE pub. 1984 p. 234-241

16.) Pithecanthropus, or Java Man, is based solely on the evidence of a skull cap and a femur that was dug up a year later and 50 feet away. The finder, Eugene Dubois, admitted the skull cap was from a gibbon like ape.(Eugene Dubois, "On the gibbon like appearance of Pithecanthropus Erectus", Koniklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen Vol 38 Amsterdam Koninklijke Akademie 1935 P.578)

17.) Nebraska Man was a local fossil, the entire evidence consisting of a single tooth. Nebraska Man was pictured on the front page of Life magazine in a hunter-gatherer mode. During the famous Scopes Monkey Trial, Nebraska Man was labeled a genuine missing link. The tooth turned out to be a tooth of a pig. (Henry Fairfield Osborne, Hesperopithicus Haroldcookii, the first anthropoid primate found in North America, Science Vol 60 #1427 May 3, 1922 P.463)(William K. Gregory, "Hesperopithecus apparently not ape or man" Science Vol 66 #17209 Dec 16, 1927)

18.) Piltdown Man, a deliberate hoax some blame on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, had people fooled for years and even had its picture on Life Magazine.(Joseph Wiener "The Piltdown Forgery" London Oxford U. Press)

19.) Other hoaxes have occurred in the evolutionary tree, consider this one: Science News , Week of Jan. 15, 2000; Vol. 157, No. 3 All mixed up over birds and dinosaurs By R. Monastersky. Red-faced and downhearted, paleontologists are growing convinced that they have been snookered by a bit of fossil fakery from China. The "feathered dinosaur"specimen that they recently unveiled to much fanfare apparently combines the tail of a dinosaur with the body of a bird, they say. "It's the craziest thing I've ever been involved with in my career," says paleontologist Philip J. Currie of the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Paleontology in Drumheller,Alberta.

20.) The fossil, named Archaeoraptor liaoningensis, comes from the northeastern province of Liaoning, where local farmers have been unearthing many new dinosaur species, some showing evidence of downlike coats and feathers. Currie, Stephen Czerkas of the Dinosaur Museum in Blanding, Utah, and Xing Xu of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology in Beijing announced the discovery of Archaeoraptor at a press conference in Washington, D.C., at the National Geographic Society last October (SN: 11/20/99, p. 328). At the time, they called it a missing link between birds and dinosaurs because it manifested the long bony tail of dromaeosaurid dinosaurs and the specialized shoulders and chest of birds. The scientists couldn't be sure of the fossil's history because they had not excavated it. Spirited out of China, the specimen attracted Czerkas' attention when he saw it for sale in Utah. His museum arranged its purchase by a benefactor. Recently, while examining a dromaeosaurid dinosaur in a private collection in China, Xu decided that the Archaeoraptor fossil is a chimera [A chimera is a mix of parts from different critters - Mar.]. The tail of that dinosaur is identical to the Archaeoraptor tail, he told Science News. The two tails are mirror images of each other, derived from the same individual, says Xu. When rocks containing fossils are split, they often break into two fossils.

Currie suspects that someone sought to enhance the value of Archaeoraptor by pasting one part of the dinosaur's tail to a bird fossil. Czerkas is reserving judgement until he can view both fossils together. "I've got all this other evidence suggesting the tail does belong with the [Archaeoraptor] fossil," he says. The paleontologists already had concerns about the tail because the bones connecting it to the body are missing and the slab shows signs of reworking. They had convinced themselves, however, that the two parts belonged together. Other scientists criticize the team and the National Geographic Society for unveiling the fossil before any detailed article had appeared in a scientific journal. "There probably has never been a fossil with a sadder history than this one," says Storrs L. Olson of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C.

21.) While on the subject of birds, here is another 'finding', questioning the normal, accepted theory that Birds came from dinosaurs: June 14, 1999 - No. 386 By DAVID WILLIAMSON UNC-CH News Services ****** CHAPEL HILL - Working together on fossilized remains, Chinese and U.S. researchers have discovered a previously unknown species of primitive bird, a finding that offers new evidence that early bird evolution was considerably more complex than previously believed. In the process, the scientists have identified on its nearly complete skeleton, the world1s oldest surviving horny beak, part of a fossil dating back some 130 million years. They also say they1ve added more weight to the argument that birds descended not from dinosaurs, but rather from unknown earlier reptile ancestors. "One of the really interesting things about these discoveries is that they unexpectedly and vividly show that birds had already diversified by the late Jurassic-early Cretaceous period," said Dr. Alan Feduccia, chair of biology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.... (from out of nowhere, apparently!!) A report on the discovery appears in the June 17 issue of Nature, a British science journal. Besides Feduccia, authors are Drs. Lianhai Hou and Fucheng Zhang of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing and Larry D. Martin and Zhonghe Zhou of the University of Kansas in Lawrence.

The researchers have named the new species Confuciusornis dui in honor of Wenya Du, the man who collected the specimen near the edge of a lake in northeast China1s Liaoning Province and donated it to the Beijing institute. It is a smaller but close relative of Confuciusornis sanctus, another crow-like bird of the same age the researchers found and reported in Nature in 1995. Because hundreds of specimens of C. sanctus now have been found in the same area, volcanic eruptions likely killed them along the lakeshore instantaneously and froze them in time, Feduccia said. The new species was an unexpected but pleasant surprise. "This bird was more advanced than Archaeopteryx in that it had a beak but was less advanced in that it had two small openings in the rear of its skull very similar to the reptile progenitors of birds," he said. "This is a mosaic pattern we see very much in vertebrate evolution - in other words, various lineages showing both primitive and advanced features at the same time. What this really shows is that early bird evolution was not linear, as many people have depicted it, but rather a far more complicated Obush1 with many extinct lines."... (More advanced! Less advanced! Forward and reverse, all in the same bird! Chinese firedrill on evolutionary chronology, everybody!)

Neither of the two cousin species likely were ancestors of modern birds, Feduccia said. Instead, they were side "twigs" that disappeared from their family tree -- or bush -- millions of years ago. Males of both species bore two long tail plumes indicating the sexes differed significantly from each other. Like its cousin, the new bird C. dui also grew asymmetric wing feathers characteristic of all modern flying birds. Ostriches and other birds that can1t fly well sprout nearly symmetric feathers incapable of creating an airfoil and hence lift. "These birds also have highly curved foot claws and reversed big toes showing they were clearly tree-dwelling creatures," the scientist said. "Together, these and other characteristics -- and the fact that the birds lived in complex social colonies - show that they were pretty well developed. "It seems to us that this was a tree-dwelling bird, not an earth-bound, feathered dinosaur as people advocating a dinosaur origin of birds have said."

In 1979, Feduccia made international news by publishing a paper proving that the oldest known bird, Archaeopteryx, could fly because its wing feathers were asymmetric. Barbs on one side of its wing feather quills clearly grew longer than barbs on the other side. "Some other scientists had speculated that Confusciusornis was a ground-living predator whose beak may have been hooked like a hawk, and this restoration was recently featured as a cover of Scientific American," Martin said. "The new fossil shows something very different. The beak is pointed and turned up at the tip very much like the cartoon bird Woody Woodpecker." Combining modern and ancient features in the same skull was surprising, he said.... (Not if you reject the evolutionary chronology.) Dui, the new specimen, also shows that the half-moon shaped bone in the wrist that1s been used to support a dinosaurian ancestry for birds is the same in Confusciusornis and Archaeopteryx as in modern birds, but is a different bone in dinosaurs, Martin said. "It no longer can be one of the main supports for a dinosaurian origin of birds," he said.

Bird-dinosaur claims have many setbacks. Consider this critique of the fossils found:
A Closer look at Dino-BirdsBy G.S. Paul (excerpted from DinoData website)DINO-BIRDS Sinosauropteryx Scipionyx Protachaeopteryx Caudipteryx and Confuciusornis- by G.S. PAUL - Direct examination confirms that the "croc-septum" described by Ruben et al. 1997 consists entirely of breakage and glue. Where all three arrows in their paper point, there is major damage. The ventral flakage is especially hard to see in photos, the dorsal breakage is patently obvious. The central crack was filled with cement colored to match the sediment. The breakage occurred when the slab was broken into numerous pieces during its initial removal by a local farmer, as a result the damage is symmetrical on the two slabs. The repair work was also done by the collector. So Ruben et al. mistook incompetent collection and repair work by an amateur for soft tissue anatomy. What is the dark material? In Scipionyx the probable liver sits well forward in the chest (as in birds), directly above the juncture of the anterior gastralia and what must have been the posterior end of the cartilage portion of the sternum. The authors of the Nature paper have confirmed to me that the liver does not extend dorsally in Scipionyx, contrary to certain claims made at Dinofest. In Dinosauropteryx the anterior end of the gastralia is well forward of the dark material.

Ergo, the liver very probably was not preserved. The dark material is in the same location - the posterior half of the body cavity from dorsal vertebra 8 or 9 back - as the well preserved intestines of Scipionyx, so it too probably represents the contents of the gut. There is no soft tissue evidence for the presence of a croc-like liver, septum, or fore- and-aft partitioning of the body cavity in any theropod. It was suggested at Dinofest that the "body outline" (visible in the photo in July Natl Geo) of the largest Sinosauropteryx lies outside and contains the "internal fibers".

The "outline" is actually the preservative applied after the completion of prep work. In some places on the sediment the sealant is thick enough to glisten (in most areas the coat was so thin that it absorbed into the sediment with a flat sheen), there are some thick circular drip bead marks, the brush work can be seen in some places, in some places there was a shallow shelf of sediment where the brush did not carry the sealant into the base of the shelf, etc. The sealant was applied to preserve the loose feathers on the slab as well (as you can see in the Natl Geo photograph). In the Natl Geo photo, there appears to be an small array of feathers at the tip of the tail of the large Sinosauropteryx. However, the slab was - as true of all of these specimens - badly shattered, and the feathers lie on a separate slab. At first glance there seems to be a couple of distal vertebrae on the feathered slab. However, examination under magnification with a flashlight revealed that no bone is present, the vertebrae are illusions created by breakage of the sediment.

The last few tail vertebrae are missing because they were lost along with the slab that really belongs there. Nor do the feathers have any connection with the vertebrae (unlike the tail feathers of Protarchaeopteryx and Caudipteryx). They are just some loose feathers on a slab that the farmer decided looked good at the end of the tail. The "tail flipper" that some seem to think surrounds the supposed tail feathers is of course just more brushed on sealant. From what I gathered some who examined the specimens still belive that the sealant is a body outline and that the tail flipper is real. Mistaking damage and prep work is not, of course science, and one can only hope these nonsensical notions will not see the light of publication.

22.) Back to the mistakes of 'Ape-Men"...

Neanderthal Man was found in Neanderthal Valley in West Germany. Long accepted as a missing link, Neanderthal man has been proven to be human, very similar to Europeans today, yet with proven diseases such as rickets, syphilis, and arthritis.(Carl Hodge "Neanderthal Traits Extant, Group Told" The Arizona Republic Vol 99 #186 P. B-5)

23.) There is no proof that man evolved from an ape like creature. In fact, many fossils of man have been found, dated to coincide with the ages of these extinct apes:

24.) Petralona Man, found in a stalagmite 700 thousand years old.(Current Anthropology Vol 22 #3 June 1981 P.287)

25.) Human Jawbone found in China in Yangtze River dated 2 million years old.(Java Man is only 500 thousand)(Mesa Tribune Mesa Arizona Nov 20 1988)

Also, there are some findings that contradict all known science:

26.) Human skeleton found 1. 6 million years old, by Richard Leaky( Wash. Post Oct 19, 1984)

27.) Human footprints, dated 3.75 million years old at Latolil (Nature Vol28 #5702 Mar 22.1979, P.317-323)

28.) THE OLDEST MAN: "[African footprints]... they belonged to the genus Homo (or true man), rather than to man-apes (like Australopithecus, who was once thought to be the forerunner of Man but is now regarded as a possible evolutionary dead end)... they were 3.35 to 3.75 million years old... they would, in Mary Leakey's words, be people 'not unlike ourselves'" TIME, Nov. 10, 1975, p.93

29.) TOO HUMAN TOO OLD: Russell H Tuttle, Professor of Anthropology, University of Chicago, Affiliate Scientist, Primate Research Center, Emory University, "In sum, the 3.5 million year old footprint trails at Laetoli site G resemble those of habitually unshod modern Humans... If the G footprints were not known to be so old, we would readily conclude that they were made by a member of our genus... in any case, we should shelve the loose assumption that the Laetoli footprints were made by Lucy's kind..." NATURAL HISTORY, March 1990, p. 64


Evolutionists themselves disagree on just what the fossils mean and just how old they are. Consider the following:

30.) RUINED FAMILY TREE: "either we toss out this [skull 11470] or we toss out our theories of early man," asserts anthropologist Richard Leakey of this 2.8 million year old fossil, which he has tentatively identified as belonging to our own genus. "It simply fits no previous models of human beginnings." The author, son of famed anthropologist Louis S.B. Leakey, believes that the skull's surprisingly large braincase "leaves in ruins the notion that all early fossils can be arranged to an orderly sequence of evolutionary change." NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, June 1973, p.819

31.) HUMAN BRAIN: "Leakey further describes the whole shape of the brain case [skull 11470] as remarkably reminiscent of modern man, lacking the heavy and protruding eyebrow ridges and thick bone characteristics of Homo Erectus." SCIENCE NEWS, April 3, 1972, p. 324

32.) "OLD" MODERN MAN: Louis Leakey, "In 1933 I published on a small fragment of jaw we call Homo Kanamens 1s, and I said categorically that this is not a near-man or ape, this is a true member of genus Homo. There were stone tools with it too. The age was probably around 2.5 to 3 million years. It was promptly put upon a shelf by my colleagues, except for two of them. The rest said it must be placed in a "suspense account". Now, 36 years later, we have proved I was right." Quoted in Bones of Contention, p.156

33.) MODERN AND TALL: Richard Leakey, "... the boy from Tukana was surprisingly large compared with modern boys his age... he would probably go unnoticed in a crowd today. This find combines with previous discoveries of Homo Erectus to contradict a long held idea that humans have grown larger over the millennia," NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, Nov. 1985, p. 629

34.) MAN EVEN BEFORE "LUCY": Charles E. Oxnard, Dean, Grad School, Professor Biology and Anatomy, USC, "...earlier finds, for instance, at Kanapoi, existed at the same time as, and probably even earlier than, the original gracile Australopithecines... almost indistinguishable in shape from that of modern Humans at four and a half million years..." AMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, Vol. 41, May 1979, p.274

35.) HENRY M. MCHENRY, U of C, DAVIS, "The results show that the Kanapoi specimen, which is 4 to 4.5 million years old, is indistinguishable from modern Homo Sapiens..." SCIENCE, Vol. 190, p.28

36.) WILLIAM HOWELLS, HARVARD, "With a date of about 4.4 million years, [KP 2711] could not be distinguished from Homo Sapiens morphologically or by multivariate analysis by Patterson or myself in 1967 (or by much searching analysis by others since then). We suggested that it might represent Australopithecus because at the time, time allocation to Homo seemed preposterous, although it would be the correct one without the time element." HOMO ERECTUS, 1981, pp. 79-80


115 posted on 02/02/2005 8:47:07 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: curiosity
you said::
Woops. That's, does Gensis 2:19-20, literally, in the original Hebrew, indicate that God created animals after creating man?

I answered that already.




Genesis doesn't have to be written as a science textbook, all it has to be is true.

The story of Creation is one of teaching us that there is a creator, and some small points on how He created, so that we realize that we are humans created specially by God, and therefore here for a reason.

Genesis does not have to be a science book to teach us the order of days that Creation was, nor does it have to be a science book to describe what came first, the chicken or the egg.

God made it clear in Genesis that we are specially created beings, that ALL life is specially created, and that therefore any attempts to infuse evolution into the argument is false.

And there is no twisting of the creation accounts between Genesis 1 and 2.

Genesis 2 clearly starts with saying that the creation is complete. Gen 2:4 is clearly spoken as a metaphor, while the days of Genesis 1 are CLEARLY added to with modifiers to make them known as single, 24 hour days.

Someone brought this up on another thread a couple days ago. Here was my response to him::

have no idea where you got that from, but here is what the Bible actually says in Genesis 2::

(Gen 2:1 KJV) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

(Gen 2:2 KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

(Gen 2:3 KJV) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Gen 2:4 KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

(Gen 2:5 KJV) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

(Gen 2:6 KJV) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

(Gen 2:7 KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

;
;
Notice there is NO MENTION of the Creation days as singular events. It is an overview of the events written in a way that some scholars call the geneology pattern listing the origin of some kingdoms of the Mid-East (See Gleason Archer and others). Nor is there any mention of Adam being around before plants existed. In fact, Genesis 2:5 clearly says plants were there BEFORE there was a man.

The only way you can get confused is if you twist Gen 2:4, IN THE DAY.

WE USE THAT type of speech today, referring to In the days of Clinton, the Day of our revolutionary fathers and such, and we dont mean a single day, we mean a time period.

If a person just reads it plainly, like it was written to be read, it is obvious Gen 2:4 means a time period, not an individual day referring to the whole Creation week.

As for the lack of a literal day, if there was no literal day in the description of Evening, Morning, and then the term DAY, then we have no reason to believe any word day means a day.

The days of Genesis 1 are the most clearly defined 24 hour periods in the Bible, and it is only those who wish to do away with the meaning of the word day who try to say otherwise.

And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And the evening and the morning were the third day.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

You must observe what you are trying to say when you deny the days of Genesis 1 are not 24 hour days:
Day 1, the creation of the Heavens and the Earth took an undetermined time, possible what we would call a million years

day 2, the firmament separating the waters above from the waters below took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years

day 3, the creation of plants and herbs took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years

day 4, Stars, the sun and moon took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years
WHICH CAN ONLY MEAN GOD HAD PLANTS THAT WERE CREATED ON DAY 3 EXIST FOR MAYBE A MILLION YEARS WITHOUT SUNLIGHT, something we KNOW cannot happen today!

day 5, all the whales, the sea monsters, the birds, the fish took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years

day 6, all the cattle, beasts including dinosaurs and cows, crickets and mice and MAN took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years

day 7, God's REST took an indeterminate length of time, possible what we would call a million years

And what you need to notice, that order of Creation is DIFFERENT from an evolutionist order of events.

SO, if you call the Bible a lie because you dont want to believe the LITERAL DAY of Genesis::

And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And the evening and the morning were the third day.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

IF you dont believe that a DAY means a DAY when it clearly has modifiers next to the word DAY EXPLAINING it is a 24 hour day, then you have no reason at ALL to believe that the word day means a 24 hour period anywhere in the Bible.

You also call GOD Himself a liar, for GOD HIMSELF said 6 days was the length of Creation::

(Exo 20:8 KJV) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

(Exo 20:9 KJV) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

(Exo 20:10 KJV) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(Exo 20:11 KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


If the days were not LITERAL DAYS, then there was no reason for GOD HIMSELF to use the word DAY here, was there? You are calling God a liar when you do that...
116 posted on 02/02/2005 8:49:42 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: curiosity

The verb tenses in Hebrew are not the same as ours, so it is sometimes very difficult to translate and interpret with the same thought as the author intended.

The verb tense here is Qal, which is called the imperfect, but could be translated as a "present perfect" as Gen 1 should be (but isn't). From what I can tell, it would be best to interpret this from the context that God wanted to give Adam company, so he forms animals after Adam was created. I don't think the "had formed" in the NIV is the correct translation. My preference is " And The Lord God forms every beast". It could be, "and the Lord God formed every beast". I don't think "the Lord God had formed every beast" is very good.

One problem is the Masorites put the vowel points in and influenced what tense to translate in. This verb could be a completely different tense than Qal. In fact it might even be future from what I can tell. It is confusing because the root may be tsrar "crr instead of ycr".

From context I would think your idea is correct.


117 posted on 02/02/2005 9:00:36 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Be glad -- very glad -- that I keep the List-O-Links at my homepage instead of posting it. The thing has grown into a monster.

I am afraid -- very afraid! -- that someone will seize on the last word of that sentence and juxtapose it with "hopeful" :-)

118 posted on 02/02/2005 9:13:11 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: curiosity

Wow, impressive essay! That's a keeper.


119 posted on 02/02/2005 9:19:14 PM PST by Youngblood
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To: RaceBannon
I answered that already.

Sorry, but I didn't see anything in that very long post about Genesis 2:19. I saw a lot of stuff about literal days (which shubi has already thoroughly debunked, BTW), about Adam being around before plants, etc, but nothing about Genesis 2:19. Before recycling a ton of text you already posted, maybe you should stop to read it to make sure it's pertinent to the topic at hand?

120 posted on 02/02/2005 9:30:50 PM PST by curiosity
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