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Fetus' Feet Show Fish, Reptile Vestiges
Discovery News ^ | May 18, 2006 | Jennifer Viegas

Posted on 05/20/2006 6:02:56 PM PDT by Al Simmons

click here to read article


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To: swmobuffalo
That should mean we came from chickens?

Just the French.

sorry, couldn't resist.

81 posted on 05/20/2006 7:18:30 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: VadeRetro

72 platypusses? Now I know all. ;) I wonder what I get?

Tie me kangaroo down, Clyde.

Mind me platypus duck, Bill,
Mind me platypus duck.
Don't let him go running amuck, Bill,
Mind me platypus duck.
All together now!

Tie me kangaroo down, sport,
Tie me kangaroo down.
Tie me kangaroo down, sport,
Tie me kangaroo down.

http://www.whatsthenumber.com/oz-u/songs/tie-me-kangaroo-down-11.htm


82 posted on 05/20/2006 7:21:07 PM PDT by phantomworker (So what? Now what? ......... Procrastination is suicide on the installment plan.)
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To: muawiyah
"We wouldn't have this thread if the whole idea had been successfully put to rest."

This is not recapitulation.

"It's still believed (even if you gave up teaching it 100 years ago). It's still specious."

You don't even know what *it* is.
83 posted on 05/20/2006 7:21:57 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
The reference to the piece in Wikipedia pretty well covered "it".

Your response suggests you didn't follow the thread very well. It's late at night. Saturday evening in fact. I suppose a fellow could lose his place eh?!

84 posted on 05/20/2006 7:25:38 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: P.O.E.

Thanks for the response. The Wiki gives what I had originally thought. The theory was developed in the 1860's, has been discarded, but still gets brought out, probably because people read it in a book, put it in a new book, etc. Although I'm a creationist, I don't see the discrediting of this hurting evolutionary theory in the least. Nothing of what I understand about evolution demands this process during the pre-birth phase.


85 posted on 05/20/2006 7:28:37 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (I like to make everyone's day a little more surreal)
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To: VadeRetro
... the evolutionists are so unpopular ...

After I started reading Richard Dawkins, I started getting invited to more parties and noticed there were always more girls standing around trying to get in on the conversation.

86 posted on 05/20/2006 7:28:41 PM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: muawiyah
"Your response suggests you didn't follow the thread very well."

I read it fine. You didn't. This isn't the recapitulation hypothesis of Haeckel.

"I suppose a fellow could lose his place eh?!"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. :)
87 posted on 05/20/2006 7:35:18 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Sorry, "it" is referenced very clearly in the Wikipedia article ~ that the old "recapitulation" theory, taken as an observation, is used, by some to support what they believe to be evolutionary theory.

You really do gotta' read this stuff ~ you're beginning to sound like CarolinaMom anyway ~ are you folks maybe related, like brother/sister, or the Madonna and Child?

88 posted on 05/20/2006 7:37:20 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: js1138
Those interested in the subject might try their hand at figuring out what species these are.

Hand me the amniocentesis equipment...

The naked eye is not a sensitive enough instrument for many measurements.

Cheers!

89 posted on 05/20/2006 7:38:19 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: muawiyah
"Sorry, "it" is referenced very clearly in the Wikipedia article..."

This isn't the recapitulation theory.
90 posted on 05/20/2006 7:41:39 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Didn't say it was.

No doubt it's much later where you are than where I am.

91 posted on 05/20/2006 7:48:18 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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To: Caveman Lawyer
Holy crap, this thread has all the elements, doesn't it?

LOL!

92 posted on 05/20/2006 8:06:14 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: your mind)
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To: shuckmaster; VadeRetro

Dawkins did write some interesting books. Now can I get in on the conversation? ;o)

Lots of cool quotes:

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Catalano/quotes.shtml#short

"The world becomes full of organisms that have what it takes to become ancestors. That, in a sentence, is Darwinism"...Dawkins.

"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out."


93 posted on 05/20/2006 8:12:18 PM PDT by phantomworker (So what? Now what? ......... Procrastination is suicide on the installment plan.)
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To: sgtbono2002
Crack a fertilised chicken egg and you dont see a rooster with its wattles.

Correct. Instead you get balut.

(Warning - if you don't know what balut is and tend to be squeamish, you might not want to follow this link.)

94 posted on 05/20/2006 8:20:36 PM PDT by Antonello (Oh my God, don't shoot the banana!)
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To: Richard Kimball
The Wiki gives what I had originally thought. The theory was developed in the 1860's, has been discarded, but still gets brought out, probably because people read it in a book, put it in a new book, etc. Although I'm a creationist, I don't see the discrediting of this hurting evolutionary theory in the least. Nothing of what I understand about evolution demands this process during the pre-birth phase.

You need to re-read these passages from the article:

An early form of the law was devised by the 19th-century Estonian zoologist Karl Ernst von Baer, who observed that embryos resemble the embryos, but not the adults, of other species.

and...

Modern theory

One can explain connections between phylogeny and ontogeny if one assumes that one species changes into another by a sequence of small modifications to its developmental program (specified by the genome). Modifications that affect early steps of this program will usually require modifications in all later steps and are therefore less likely to succeed. Most of the successful changes will thus affect the latest stages of the program, and the program will retain the earlier steps. Occasionally however, a modification of an earlier step in the program does succeed: for this reason a strict correspondence between ontogeny and phylogeny, as expressed in Ernst Haeckel's discredited recapitulation law, fails.

See? Each gene does a specific thing, is triggered by a molecule with a specific shape meeting its promoter region - and also gets turned on or off at a specific point in the organism's development.

So a mutation to a gene could affect any or all of those aspects of it. But an organism that has this new mutation to a gene will be indistinguishable from a comrade at the same age until the new mutation starts making itself felt. Add up all the mutations that distinguish one species from its parent species, and you have individuals in the new species going off on their own developmental pathway at some point in their lives - and tending to create precisely the pattern that von Baer (but not Haeckel!) predicted.

BTW, this book, Endless Forms Most Beautiful, is supposed to be an excellent book on the subject of evo-devo - the hot subfield that real, live evolutionary biologists of today work in, studying embryos. (I haven't read it yet, but it got great reviews.)

95 posted on 05/20/2006 8:55:40 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: your mind)
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To: Seamoth; Al Simmons; tallhappy; editor-surveyor
Ontogeny (embryonic development) does not recapture phylogeny (evolution), and thus Haeckel was wrong to say so, and of course, he was wrong to alter these drawings...

However, like anatomy, ontogeny does follow a remarkable progression when you move from species to species in the evolutionary chain...

There are some amazing facts that led Haeckel astray

My favorite is the way that mammalian ear bones start out in the jaw and then migrate to the ear. This exactly mimics the fossil progression from reptiles to mammals.

It also pretty much disproves ID because an engineer faced with the task of making a better ear would leave a perfectly good jaw joint alone and simply modify the ear.

Other examples of embryological vestigisms are the egg shell that forms around a developing marsupial embryo (and is reabsorbed before it's born), and the egg teeth that some marsupials have but never use.

96 posted on 05/20/2006 9:08:59 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: Virginia-American
Amazing! Thanks for the information!

It also pretty much disproves ID because an engineer faced with the task of making a better ear would leave a perfectly good jaw joint alone and simply modify the ear.

I don't know much biology but I know a little about computers. I made this observation. Nature does not resemble the solutions that computer engineers create. Nature resembles far more the solutions that genetic algorithms & similar models create: a muddled jumble formed by endless generations of random improvisations upon random improvisations, often with critical weaknesses. It's hard to believe, for example, that a God would use such a vunerable thorax/neck.
97 posted on 05/20/2006 9:27:56 PM PDT by Seamoth (Hemocyanin, chlorophyll, and hemoglobin.)
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To: editor-surveyor; PatrickHenry

Thanks for the pings!


98 posted on 05/20/2006 9:33:39 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Seamoth
You're welcome!

Another interesting vestigism is the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It's the part of the vagus nerve that controls the vocal cords in mammals. The interesting thing is that it starts in the brainstem, goes into the chest, loops around the aortic arch, and then goes back up into the throat.

This adds about 15 feet in a giraffe.

It's too late for me to hunt down a good reference, but basically what happened is that in fish the nerve goes to a gill, and the heart is much further forward.

The mammalian heart moves down into the chest, and the topology forces the nerve to follow it.
99 posted on 05/20/2006 9:36:14 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: Virginia-American

Fascinating. So you're saying that there's no "reason" for the nerve to wrap around the heart before ending at the throat? Now that you mention it, the pulsation of fish gills do resemble the vibration of vocal cords!


100 posted on 05/20/2006 9:40:34 PM PDT by Seamoth (Hemocyanin, chlorophyll, and hemoglobin.)
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