2 lawmakers spurn Muslim's prayer - Republicans step off House floor

Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | March 4, 2003 | ANGELA GALLOWAY

[sarcasm]

OLYMPIA -- He prayed for the politicians, the state's prosperity and peace for all ethnicities and religions.

But when a Muslim cleric offered the opening prayer before the state House of Representatives yesterday, at least two lawmakers stepped off the chamber floor.

"It's an issue of patriotism," Rep. Lois McMahan, a conservative Republican from Gig Harbor, said of her decision to stand in the back of the room.

"The Islamic religion is so . . . part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be a part of that," she said. "Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America."

Rep. Cary Condotta, a Republican from East Wenatchee, also left the floor. He said the timing was not a coincidence, but he declined to comment further on why he left, except to say he was talking to another lawmaker and "let's just say I wasn't particularly interested."

A prayer is given at the beginning of each Senate and House session, and attendance is hit or miss, particularly on Mondays.

The interfaith organization Associated Ministries of Thurston County schedules the daily chaplain, said Cynthia Zehnder, clerk of the 98-member chamber. They have selected clerics representing a broad range of faiths, she said.

Imam Mohamad Joban, of the Islamic Center of Olympia, presented yesterday's brief opening prayer.

In part, he said: "We open this session of House of Representatives in the name of Allah the one God Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all. . . . We ask Allah or God to bless the state of Washington so it may continue to prosper and become a symbol of peace and tranquility for people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds. We pray that Allah may guide this House in making good decisions for the people of Washington.

"At this time, we also pray that America may succeed in the war against terrorism. We pray to God that the war may end with world peace and tranquility."

Joban said the walkout was not hurtful, but ignorant.

"They're unable to distinguish between Islam as religion and way of life, and bad Muslims," said Joban, who has also given the opening prayer to the Senate. "They are easily able to distinguish between Christianity and bad Christians.

"They need to understand that like (President) Bush said . . . Islam is a peaceful religion."

Kathy Erlandson, director of Associated Ministries of Thurston County, found the small walkout disappointing, but not surprising.

"It makes me embarrassed to know that some of our legislators can't even treat someone with that common respect," she said. "He's an American citizen and he's praying for their work, then how can it be an act of patriotism to walk away?"

McMahan said she does not oppose having a Muslim cleric deliver the prayer.

Her departure was not a protest, but a personal decision not to participate because "the religion is the focal point of the hate-America sentiment in the world."

"My god is not Mohammed," McMahan added.

Joban said that if he were invited to give the opening prayer, he would do it again.

"Even if half of them leave it's OK for me," Joban said. "As a Muslim we have to respect what people believe and . . . we have to forgive something because of ignorance.

"The Holy Quran says that (one should) always respond to bad action with good and those who used to be enemies become friends."

[brownie]

You are incorrect. Please quote me the clause of the constitution you are referring to about religious neutrality and elected officials having to be neutral. Having read the constitution several times, I have never seen it. That is why I ask you to point to it, rather than stating it in your own words. If you cannot do so, it means that it does not exist. I don't disagree with you simply because I don't like what you say, I disagree with you because you don't support what you say. AS I said before, the only reference to religion in the Constitution is that the Congress shall establish no religion. It says nothing about neutrality and says nothing about whay legislators can and cannot do or say. In fact, a legislator can get up on the floor of the institution, and denounce any religion he/she wants to and it would not be unconstitutional. Now, if the Legislature (which is the body, not the individual) passed a law establishing a religion, that would be unconstituitional. Do you understand the difference? I will try to make it simpler. An individual legislator, acting alone, is not the same as the legislature (the body, made up of many individual legislators) formally voting on a statute or resolution. Therefore, there is no constitutional ban on any individual legislator walking out on the prayer.

Now, you can argue that it was impolite, or political stupid, but you cannot argue that it was illegal or unconstitutional. Again, those are different concepts.

[brownie]

Let's all agree to give up arguing with Illbay. I can't figure out if he really believes what he's writing, in which case he has a very strange view of what the constitution is and what it says - much different then what the letters on the paper say anyway - or he is just having fun getting a rise out of everyone.

[brownie]

So, the president or other elected officials should not go to church regularly, as this shows favoritism toward his/her faith? And, the president and all elected officials should officially resign from their religions? I mean, if I'm elected and everyone knows I'm, say, catholic, that shows that I have a bias toward that religion, which would be unconstituitonal according to this strange argument. I think you are on to something here, only professed aetheists or agnostics can be elected to office, otherwise it is unconstitutional!!

[f.Christian]

illbay ... "neutral" means morally // mentally dead --- equity (( rest )) of lies !

[Libertina]

BTTT If she chose not to attend, and did NOT walk out during the prayer, then I apologize to her.

Morning Illbay. Yes, she did NOT walk out. This was a (hit) piece against Republicans. If you read some of my postings on this situtaion(unfortunately late in the thread) you'll see that the media presented this in a biased manner. Surprise, surprise. Many here, including myself before I learned differently, assumed the House ceremony to be one where everbody sat down quietly to begin the day and prayed together. Not so. People coming and going all the time, every day. Christian or non, giving the prayer.

[Illbay]

Right now, Islam is at war with the US.

The profound level of B.S. on FR continues.

[Illbay]

Again: You're all about "rights" and NOTHING about responsibilities.

As it is, I got a response from one of the legislators, Rep. McMahan, and she tells me that she never walked out in the first place, and WOULD NOT HAVE WALKED OUT. She says this news story has been blown all out of proportion and is the result of irresponsible reporting.

She also said that she supports freedom of ALL religions and has great respect for Islam as she does all religions in America.

So there.

[cardinal4]

Illbay, perhaps you should go into a mosque in disguise. Listen to what they have say and then come back and make your claim.

[EternalVigilance]

So there.

Spoken like a true nine-year-old...

[Illbay]

See THIS THREAD. You are spot-on.

[Illbay]

Not so. "Neutral" in this case simply means that no religious faith is favored, and no religious faith is put in official disrepute.

This is a sacred principle, and one of the most important foundations of our Republic.

[Illbay]

CLICK HERE. Whatever else you might think, Rep. McMahan apparently agrees with me.

[Terridan]

Could care less if cleric is funding raghead terrorists...
who's talking out their ass... those defending ragheads for any reason.

[f.Christian]

Creation/God...REFORMATION(Judeo-Christianity)---secular-govt.-humanism/SCIENCE---CIVILIZATION!

Originally the word liberal meant social conservatives(no govt religion--none) who advocated growth and progress---mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality... UNDER GOD---the nature of GOD/man/govt. does not change. These were the Classical liberals...founding fathers-PRINCIPLES---stable/SANE scientific reality/society---industrial progress...moral/social character-values(private/personal) GROWTH(limited NON-intrusive PC Govt/religion---schools)!

Evolution...Atheism-dehumanism---TYRANNY(pc/liberal/govt-religion/rhetoric)...

Then came the SPLIT SCHIZOPHRENIA/ZOMBIE/BRAVE-NWO1984 LIBERAL NEO-Soviet Darwin/ACLU America---the post-modern age of switch-flip-spin-DEFORMITY-cancer...Atheist secular materialists -- BONE heads and RAG (( nazi cults )) heads !

[EternalVigilance]

Apparently she does.

Zippety-do-dah.

[Illbay]

who's talking out their ass...

You are, obviously, since you have absolutely no proof that this guy was doing any such thing.

[ppaul]

.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134646239_prayer05.html

Protest over Muslim prayer nothing new for Legislature

By David Postman and Sarah Lorenzini
Seattle Times Olympia bureau

OLYMPIA — Melding prayer and politics in the Legislature has long been one tough job. Poets, policy, a lesbian former nun, a Native American healer, and praying in Jesus' name all have created controversies among legislators who stand for the prayer each morning they're in session.

But never has it caused the stir whipped up by Rep. Lois McMahan's statements after she chose to leave the House chambers Monday rather than listen to a prayer by a Muslim cleric.

It wasn't so much that she left, but what she said afterward.

She said she did it as a patriotic act to protest U.S. Muslim leaders who she said did not condemn strongly enough the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

McMahan is expected to make an apology on the House floor today for the comments she made about her decision to sit out on the prayer, according to her legislative assistant.

But McMahan's protest has some people questioning whether politicians can pray without fighting.

"Maybe the time for prayer in the Legislature is past," said Janice Holz, office manager with Associated Ministries of Thurston County, which arranges for clergy to deliver the prayer.

Republican leaders were quick to distance themselves from McMahan, a Republican from Gig Harbor. Some Democrats called for an apology.

"I feel it is unfortunate, and I think it paints us with a broad stroke. But I hope people realize that each member is an individual, and we let them have all the rope they want, and what they do with it is their choice," said House Deputy Minority Leader Richard DeBolt, R-Chehalis.

Minority Leader Cathy McMorris, R-Colville, Stevens County, said that although she talked with McMahan yesterday, she wasn't yet sure McMahan should apologize.

"I left a little confused about what she really is trying to accomplish," McMorris said, adding that McMahan's statements "seem to be in conflict."

After a barrage of media calls from around the country, McMahan issued a statement late yesterday saying her actions had been misrepresented.

"For personal reasons, I chose to remain off of the House floor during the Imam's prayer. This action was not meant to make any public statement," she said in the written statement.

But yesterday she continued to say she left the House chambers to be absent when the prayer by Imam Mohamad Joban of the Islamic Center of Olympia was delivered.

"If it was a statement of anything, it was a statement of the patriotism I feel, for the love I have for this country," McMahan said in an interview.

McMahan, a conservative Christian, said she respects freedom of religion, but she wanted to protest the role of Muslims in the terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

"I feel like the Islamic leaders in this country have not been vocal enough in condemning what happened."

At the beginning of the legislative session, Holz sent out invitations to Thurston County spiritual leaders. She tried to schedule everyone who replied to bring "as wide a diversity of faiths as possible."

After the Sept. 11 attacks, Holz said people in the organization have felt the same changes as the general population. People are more sensitive about Islam, either shying away or going to great lengths to include people of Islamic faith.

The House and Senate start each floor session with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer.

Lawmakers, particularly in the House, have been sensitive to who is giving the opening prayer and what is said.

Former House Speaker Clyde Ballard, R-East Wenatchee, said most of the problems arose when people tried to make political statements.

One year, Ballard said, there was a good deal of excitement when a former nun used the opening prayer to reveal she was a lesbian.

"When you have 98 different people, it's hard not to run into times in which someone is not offended," he said.

Democrats were unhappy in 1996 when pastors invited by Republicans were making what they believed were political statements in the prayers.

Rep. Ed Murray, D-Seattle, then the Legislature's only openly gay member, complained that conservative messages were showing up in the daily prayer. He labeled the dispute "prayer wars."

Conversely, Republicans didn't like Democrats inviting poets to speak instead of pray.

"That did bother me, because although poetry is very meaningful, I could not take it to the level of reverence and spirituality that I personally obtain from prayer," said Sen. Bob Morton, R-Orient, Ferry County.

Morton, a pastor, says he hasn't always agreed with what he has heard during the morning prayer and has found it difficult to remain on the floor.

"But I have always stayed to recognize their right in these United States for their own religious beliefs, or nonreligious beliefs."

Some Republicans once objected to a Native American healer who gave the prayer.

Most recently, Democrats wanted to encourage clergy not to stress one religion too much in their prayers.

Last year, a new set of prayer guidelines were written:

"Conclusion of the prayer should embrace the collective prayerful thoughts of all present in an ecumenical manner, rather than 'in the name of' a particular deity."

That upset Ballard, who persuaded House leaders to clarify the guidelines so it's clear that people can say, "In Jesus' name we pray."

Clergy who regularly appear in the Legislature are careful about what they say.

The Rev. Paul Lundborg, senior pastor from Lutheran Church of the Good Shepherd in Olympia, said he uses more generic terms to avoid offending anyone's religion, and he expresses an interfaith idea, rather than his own religion.

"Whoever's doing the praying needs to make that decision," he said. Lundborg had Joban speak at his church to teach him more about Islam.

Former Secretary of the Senate Marty Brown said some legislators have always protested the opening prayer.

It's "the church and state question," he said.

Sen. Margarita Prentice, D-Seattle, said it is a concern she has heard from constituents as well. But she thinks the daily prayer is a good idea. She also attends a weekly morning prayer meeting of legislators and staffers.

"We can't do this by ourselves, and unless we really center ourselves and you measure yourself according to the things you believe, you can get really lost here," Prentice said.

Murray thinks one day of prayer, on Mondays, would be enough.

Rep. Dennis Flannigan, D-Tacoma, said even that's not necessary.

"I don't think we need prayer," he said. When prayer becomes "theater politics," he said, "I think it sets us against each other."

David Postman: 360-943-9882 or dpostman@seattletimes.com; Sarah Lorenzini: 360-943-9882 or slorenzini@seattletimes.com

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Murray thinks one day of prayer, on Mondays, would be enough

Of course.
No surprise there.
Murray's claim to fame is the fact that he is the State of Washington's first "openly gay" legislator.

[ET(end tyranny)]

The First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods." That's a COMMAND, not a suggestion, from the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And the third Commandment, is a COMMAND as well. Keep the Sabbath (Saturday) holy.

[EternalVigilance]

Looks to me like the politically correct idiots in the Washington legislature have turned the whole thing into a theater of the absurd.

God have mercy.

[Commander8]

Good for them!