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RUMSFELD UNDER FIRE(Wesley Clark has accused Rumsfeld of putting troops at risk )
SKY NEWS ^ | 03/26/2003 | SKYNEWS

Posted on 03/26/2003 8:08:17 PM PST by KQQL

The former supreme allied commander of Nato has accused US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld of putting allied troops at risk through poor planning.

Wesley Clark said Mr Rumsfeld's insistence on a smaller invasion force had left troops vulnerable and the 300-mile oil supply line between Kuwait and Basra open to guerilla attack.

Troops had been tied up in "messy fighting" around Nasiriyah and Baghdad, he said, leading to "logistics problems".

He added that hopes of a quick victory spurred by a popular revolt against Saddam had been dashed.

"The simple fact is that the liberation didn't quite occur. They didn't rise up."

Other war veterans have also spoken out against the early stages of war planning.

Miscalculations

Ralph Peters, a military scientist and former Army officer, wrote in the Washington Post that a coalition victory would be achieved "despite serious strategic miscalculations by the office of the Defence Secretary".

The "shock and awe" strategy of aerial bombardment had failed to shatter the will of Saddam's regime, he said, and if anything had encouraged greater resistance.

"It delayed essential attacks on Iraq's military capabilities," said Mr Peters. "This encouraged at least some Iraqis in uniform to believe they had a chance to fight and win.

"Now our forces advancing on Baghdad face the possibility of more serious combat than would otherwise have been the case."

Coalition commander General Tommy Franks's draft invasion plan proposed using four or five heavy divisions moving slowly towards Baghdad.

New warfare

Mr Rumsfeld is said to have rejected this, complaining that it was too similar to the strategy used in the 1991 Gulf War. Instead he insisted on a smaller, lighter force relying heavily on special forces and air power.

Retired US Army General Barry McCaffrey, commander of the 24th Infantry Division 12 years ago, said Mr Rumsfeld had ignored warnings that he was underestimating the number of troops needed.

"I think he thought these were generals with feet planted in World War Two who didn't understand the new way of warfare," he said.

"If the Iraqis actually fight it's going to be brutal, dangerous work and we could take a couple to 3,000 casualties."

Mr Rumsfeld insisted his strategy was working.

"It's a good plan everybody agrees to, and it is a plan that in four and a half or five days has moved ground forces to within a short distance of Baghdad."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
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To: ArneFufkin
I basically agree with your post. But don't take the MOAB out of the equation. It's part of it. The MOAB may be "loud" enough to wake up the pathetically confused souls in the civilian population to go find firearms BEFORE the Fedayeen guys knock and point guns at their wives and children.

My point is that civilians are going to have to start ambushing the Fedayeen. If they lose the firefights with the Fedayeen, they will die at the hands of the Fedayeen. But they already know that. So, we need to make the civilians understand in dramatically clear terms that they are definitely going to die at our hands if they stupidly permit the Fedayeen to drag them to the front lines of the city.

461 posted on 03/27/2003 9:10:11 AM PST by the_doc
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To: Burkeman1
Oh, come on...you know the answer to that question...the economy was good back then in the good ole days. That's all the elitist snobs care about anyway -- the ones in hollywood and the ones in the press. (sarcasm: off). Don't you remember their slogan: War is a good thing when the economy is good and there's a demoncrap in the White House, stupid!
462 posted on 03/27/2003 9:16:59 AM PST by Donna Lee Nardo
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To: the_doc
First, we need to disable Al Jazeera. Whether it be a satellite link, courier plane or fiber link that's needs to be blowed up*, they need to experience temporary technical difficulties for the all time forward. The psy-ops and propaganda campaign is a threat that needs to be neutralized. Al Jazeera is our active enemy, they need to be destroyed.

There are two explanations for another costly deployment of infantry-based personnel, support structures and armor halfway accross the world to be positioned at the outskirts of a 5 million person urban center in which we have declined concentrated bombardment: either we are extending our holiday getaway to the dream vacation paradises of Syria and Iran or this is a purely political move to soothe the egos of the heavy metal Pentagon bullies and get some shine going into this next budget period so the Jarheads don't steal their funding motherlode.

The former scares the hell out of me but I'm on board, the latter disgusts me as a taxpayer who just lost half my tax break because of the costs of this little party.

Let's shoot some heavy shells just to prove the tanks and artillery batteries can do it. It's past that point. If we are still in the process of killing people and breaking things in the Medina, Neberwhaezzer and other Republican Guard units outside Baghdad when the big dogs get here next month - we are in trouble in this venture. The Guard should be flattened or wandering in a panic around the edges of Baghdad by Saturday or Sunday at the latest. Weather permitting.

Sitting around in formation by the tens of thousands waiting for the Joker to lay some of his knockout gas on us is not a good plan. The 4th missed the game, they'll get over it. Maybe they can blow the shit out of Turkey for orchestrating this insult. ;^)

* Blowed up real good

463 posted on 03/27/2003 9:21:53 AM PST by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
The 4th missed the game, they'll get over it.

I say you are dead wrong about this. I say that we will wait until they are in position and that they will lead the assault on Baghdad.

464 posted on 03/27/2003 9:29:24 AM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc
I am assuming that the sand storms are the reason we haven't thrown everything at the RG. There is no reason for those guys to be alive and well and feeling feisty right now. They are the military protectors of a terror regime. As a profession. We need to kill those guys, but we can accept surrender.

These RG guys, even if they do "withdraw" into the streets, have nowhere to go. They'll take off their uniforms, but they'll also bury their guns and hope for the best. They aren't going to street fight, that's not their training. They'll die in their bunkers or they'll lay low until the infidels say they can come out without being shot. They're professional military, and they deserve to be treated as such. If there is some security goon shooting them in the back, they need to turn on that guy. They'll get it. They have a chance to live if they run or surrender. They die if they fight us or capitulate to the terrorists.

But you are right, we need to prime that pump and make the calculated outcomes of their actions more desperate and imminent. The best option for us is to just kill them and their tormentors and solve the drama for all.

465 posted on 03/27/2003 9:42:37 AM PST by ArneFufkin
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To: the_doc
I say that we will wait until they are in position and that they will lead the assault on Baghdad.

How do you envision this assault of Baghdad?

466 posted on 03/27/2003 9:44:25 AM PST by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
I use my imagination. (Actually, I don't even bother envisioning it a whole lot.)
467 posted on 03/27/2003 11:00:40 AM PST by the_doc
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To: wirestripper; TLBSHOW
Her greatest fault is she's a purist, not unlike hard core muslims. It's agree with me, or I'll do whatever it takes to decapitate you.
468 posted on 03/27/2003 11:08:08 AM PST by Robert Drobot
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To: wirestripper

He is indeed protecting the american people, but he also has an international audience to preach to.

He is attempting to be isolationist without causing too many international rifts.

Granted that such things as the economy and soothing over the ruffled feathers of a few has-been countries like France and Russia are part of the President's job.  But, his A number one priority is doing everything that he can to prevent American citizens, which includes our brave fighting men and women, from coming to unnecessary harm from a foreign threat.

If Dubya were half the President that Reagan was, he would win the war in the quickest and most efficient manner possible, without adding to the risk that our troops already face by trying to be politically correct and then worry about patting Chirac and Putin on the head after it's all over.  As for the Arab world, they hate us anyway and nothing that we do in Iraq will change that.  But perhaps, if we didn't act so politically correct and actually won the war in a military manner, they just might learn to fear us.

As I said above, with the technology that we have today, we can measure the load and target so well that we could take out a valid military target, such as a missile launcher that threatens our pilots, with such accuracy that even if it were located in the middle of a daycare center, very few Iraqi civilians would die in the process.  That's limiting collateral damage.  But, to completely ignore such a valid military target, for no better reason than a few Iraqi civilians might be killed, is not limiting collateral damage.  It's gross incompetence... or worse.

It's a matter of priorities and Dubya has his priorities all turned around.  As much as I hate to have to admit it, it looks like, rather than doing the right thing for America and her troops, Dubya is pulling a klinton, by trying to build his legacy, at the expense of our brave fighting men and women.

It's time for Dubya to forget about his legacy and pull the plug on politically correct warfare and turn the war over to the professionals,... before his legacy costs the lives of any more of our soldiers.

 

469 posted on 03/27/2003 11:18:53 AM PST by Action-America (The next country to invade Europe has to keep France!)
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To: KQQL
I wonder if Bubba is behind this..??

I would not be one bit surprised. And Clark plans to run for president-- or so he thinks -- the Feyahdeen Clinton may let him on the ticket as VP for Hitlery.
470 posted on 03/27/2003 12:16:21 PM PST by Bigg Red (Defend America against her most powerful enemy -- the Democrats.)
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To: wcbtinman; Waco
Isn't Clark the military asshole who authorized the use of Delta Force at Waco?

I don't remember exactly the answer to your question about Delta Force, but Clark was there. I think that Serbia was a little concerned that Clark would Waco-ize their country. The now dead Bill Cooper had good documentation on his Website.

471 posted on 03/27/2003 12:37:10 PM PST by Poincare ((not a good time for a Frenchish screen name))
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To: Poincare; Waco
General Wesley Clark was involved in the siege and
final assault near Waco, Texas that killed, by a combination
of toxic gas and fire, at least 82 people including
some three dozen women, children and infants.

As outlandish as this claim may seem, it's a reasonable
conclusion that can be drawn by any fair minded person
who takes the time to examine the evidence. Further,
there is substantial circumstantial evidence that, Clark,
in addition to acting as a tactical consultant, may, in
fact, have been the prime architect and commander of the
entire operation.

If this is true, why is it important?

First, it represents a clear violation of US law. The
military is banned from involvement in the enforcement
of US civil law except under certain carefully defined
circumstances. The incident at Waco did not come even
close to legally qualifying.

Second, it casts light on some of the more outrageous
tactics used in the war against Yugoslavia, in
particular the bombing attacks on Yugoslavian news
media, essential life support services, and on civilians,
the latter which were sometimes, but not always, described
as "accidents."

Third, President Clinton began the year with the
statement that he is considering a Pentagon
proposal to create a new US military command,
commander-in-chief for the defense of the
continental U.S., a first in peace time and
an alarming move for reasons described in
"Bombing 'suspended' - and now, the future"
http://www.brasscheck.com/yugoslavia/directory/61099a.html

One of the officers most likely to receive this
appointment would be, as the result of his
"success" in Yugoslavia, General Wesley K. Clark.

Fourth, US military leadership must be well aware of
Clark's role in Waco, yet they have rewarded him
with significant promotions ever since.

* The US military was at Waco

The initial reaction of virtually every
person who hears about Clark's involvement
in the attack on the Mt. Carmel Center of the
Branch Davidians outside of Waco, Texas is
surprise and/or disbelief: "I thought it
was an ATF/FBI operation that went wrong
and all the military did was lend a few
tanks."

Let's start by dispelling that myth. Here
is the list of US military personnel and
equipment that the US Justice Department
admits were used at Mt. Carmel:

"Military Personnel and Equipment

- Personnel

Active Duty Personnel - 15
Texas National Guard Personnel - 13

- Track vehicles

Bradley fighting vehicle (OMZ) - 9
Combat Engineer Vehicle (M728) - 5
Tank Retrieval vehicle (M88) - 1
Abrams Tanks (M1A1) - 2

Source: Department of the Treasury, Report of
the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of
Vernon Wayne Howell also known as David Koresh,
U.S. Government Printing Office, September 1993

If you'd like to see a photocopy of the
original document, it's here at:
http://www.monumental.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/doc/w_doc04.gif

The Justice Department list has some very
important deliberate omissions as will become
clear later in the section on the final assault.

* The real command structure at Waco

Since the recent bombing campaign against
Yugoslavia started, "NATO commanders" (i.e.
General Wesley Clark) have insisted that
that NATO, not the UN, would be the
commanding force in Kosovo and everyone
else, like the Russians, would have
to submit to NATO orders. Epic ineptitude
on Clark's part may has thwarted NATO's
designs, but the lesson is of critical
importance for understanding Waco.

It is this: No military commander "lends"
17 pieces of armor and 15 active service
personnel under his command to anybody,
let alone the FBI or any other law
enforcement agency, willingly. The principle is
very simple: my men, my arms, my show.

In a lawful operation, the command
structure would have been publicly
announced, but since the involvement
of the military in Waco was entirely
illegal and indefensible, it was necessary
to paint the situation as an FBI operation.
The obviously substantial presence of US
military equipment used in the operation
was dismissed as being equivalent to a
"rent a car" service.

The US news media which received all of its
information on Waco by dutifully attending
FBI press conference briefings and then
repeating them uncritically swallowed the
"FBI in charge" story hook, line and sinker.

Still not convinced Waco was a military
operation? There's more.

* The key role of the Fort Hood, Texas army base

The military equipment and personnel
used at Waco came from the US Army base
at Ft. Hood,Texas, headquarters of
III Corps.

Here's an succinct account of the initial
raid that caused the standoff submitted by
David T. Hardy, an attorney who battled to
force the government to release evidence
in the case. Take special note of the passages
I've marked with ***

"The incident originated in an attempt by the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to serve search and arrest
warrants on a building, known to its residents as Mount
Carmel, located in a rural area a few miles outside of
Waco, Texas. The operation required mustering approximately
a hundred agents (flown in from sites around the country),
and who ***received military training*** at Ft. Hood. They
traveled in a convoy of sixty vehicles and were supported
by three National Guard helicopters and one fixed-wing
aircraft, ***with armored vehicles in reserve***."
http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/waco.html

The personnel, described as ATF employees, received military
training at Ft. Hood in preparation for the raid. Why?

The reason is that the original charges against the
Branch Davidians included drug violations. On the
strength of these charges - which later were found to
be absolutely false - the ATF qualified to receive
military training and other assistance for the raid.

Given that the training was customized for this
particular raid, the assistance in all likelihood
included intelligence support. In other words, military
personnel looked the compound over, drew up attack plans,
created a training program for the ATF agents, and then,
one would assume, were there on the day of the raid -
along with the local news cameras which had been tipped
off in advance - to watch the thing go down. (The
Department of Justice reports that the code word used
to launch the raid was "Showtime.")

Note too that armored vehicles were held "in reserve"
on the day of the raid as well. There are at least two
published local press photographs that show armored
military vehicles at and on their way to the Mt. Carmel
center on the very day of the raid.You can see them here:

http://www.brasscheck.com/yugoslavia/mil1.jpg

http://www.brasscheck.com/yugoslavia/mil2.jpg

There is another press photograph taken the day
after the raid which shows at least nine military
vehicles stationed at nearby Texas State Technical
College which very soon after the raid was
completely taken over as a command center.

http://www.brasscheck.com/yugoslavia/mil3.jpg

The presence of so much military owned equipment
on the scene, along with the documented fact that the
raid was prepared for at Ft. Hood by military
trainers seems to me to be all the evidence needed
to show heavy military involvement preceding the
initial raid.

Perhaps equally significant is the amount of dissembling
that surrounded the undeniable fact of pre-raid military
involvement. For example, the governor of Texas claimed
to the press that she requested National Guard presence
after the raid.

President Clinton was quoted as saying:

"The first thing I did after the ATF agents
were killed, once we knew that the FBI was going
to go in, was to ask that the military be consulted
because of the quasi-military nature of the conflict."
(Washington Times, April 24, 1993)

Attorney General Janet Reno attempted to explain away
the "FBI" use of US Army tanks as being equivalent to
an innocuous "rent a car" arrangement.

The statements of these three individuals obscure
the simple fact that the military vehicles, and personnel
who operated and maintained them, were part of the
initial raid - and therefore in clear violation of US law.

Also, government statements relayed to the public
by the US news media made much of the fact that one of
the tanks was operated by an FBI agent. It's interesting
to note that no reference was ever made to the operators
of the other 16 military vehicles used in the operation.

* Showtime

As I mentioned earlier, the code word that launched
the raid was "showtime." The name of the operation
itself, according to the aforementioned Department
of Justice report, was "Operation Trojan Horse."

Early in the siege, "Operation Trojan Horse"
became a popular destination for special forces officers
both from around the United States and from its closest ally,
the UK. They came to observe the effectiveness of various
high tech devices and tactics that were being tested against
the Branch Davidians.

Source: London Sunday Times, March 21, 1993: "FBI brings out
secret electronic weapons as Waco Siege drags on"
You can see a photocopy of the original article at:
http://www.monumental.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig01.jpg

The raid was on February 28. The London Times article ran on
March 21. It's noteworthy that Waco became a focus for
US and UK special forces officers so quickly. The 3/21
London Times report states that "observer teams from
the American Delta Force and British SAS have *already*
visited Waco." (Emphasis mine.)

Organizing groups of officers to make a field trip normally
takes far more lead time than a couple of weeks. This is the
military, not a group of freewheeling bohemians who can pile in
a van and travel across the country, or the globe, on a whim.
Yet, there they were, with plane and hotel reservations,
briefings, tours and the like, all arranged. Such organization
implies pre-planning or at least very strong pre-existing
relationships with Delta Force and SAS on the part of
the officer in charge. It would have taken an officer with
unusual connections and motivations to pull off this level of
"show and tell."

By the way, the notion that Delta Force and SAS officers
would make such a trip to observe the *FBI* using various
secret high tech warfare devices is laughable. Who in the FBI
would know how to operate them? In any event, the equipment
and tactics used came from the military, not any law
enforcement agency.

In reality, the FBI was not in charge of the Waco siege.
Its role instead was twofold: 1) to keep up fruitless
negotiations with the Branch Davidians and 2) to act as the
front for the real operation which was under military
command and therefore entirely illegal.

* Cold blooded murder

Based on the claim that Branch Davidian leader David
Koresh was abusing the children in the compound - a
lie according to survivors - and sympathy for
the "tired" FBI agents, Attorney General Janet
Reno signed off on the plan for the final assault
which resulted in the death by toxic gas and fire
of over 80 civilians. Who presented the plan to
her?

An article in CounterPunch relates the essential
facts:

"Two senior Army officers subsequently travelled to
a crucial April 14 meeting in Washington, D.C. with
Attorney General Janet Reno and Justice Department
and FBI officials in which the impending April 19
attack on the compound was reviewed. The 186-page
"Investigation into the Activities of Federal Law
Enforcement Agencies Towards the Branch Davidians",
prepared by the Committee on Government Reform and
Oversight and lodged in 1996 (CR 104 749) does not
name these two officers..."

Source: http://www.counterpunch.org/waco.html

From the sound of this, it appears clear that
the final solution to the growing political
problem of Waco came directly from the US
military. How odd if, in fact, Waco was an
FBI operation.

* The final solution

The final assault on the Mt. Carmel complex
occurred in three stages:

1) armored military vehicles punched holes
in both ends of the main building of the
complex,
2) "crowd control" gas was sprayed in, and
3) a fire started which destroyed the complex

Witnesses expected that the gas would drive the
inhabitants out. Instead, no one came out and
the complex was engulfed in fire.

Why didn't the residents come out? The
cover story as related by the FBI and
the Department of Justice is that the
Branch Davidians killed their own children
and then themselves and simultaneneously
set the complex on fire rather than surrender.
There is no forensic evidence to support
this claim.

Here's what a Failure Analysis Associates' study
found about the nature of the "crowd control"
gas that was used:

"1. The first assault started at approximately 6:00 A.M. ....

CS concentrations in the rooms directly injected by the M5
delivery alone ranged from 2 to 90 times that required to
deter trained soldiers.

Methylene chloride concentrations in the rooms directly
injected by gas were as high as 1.8 times the IDLH
(Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) concentration
and nearly to the concentration that would render a person
unconscious.

2. The second assault started at approximately 7:30 A.M.

CS concentrations in the rooms directly injected by gas
from M5 delivery alone ranged from 2 to 80 times that
required to deter trained soldiers.

Methylene chloride concentrations ... were as high as
1.6 times the IDLH...."

All in all, nearly 400 gas filled projectiles were fired

into the building, and CS was sprayed from four tank
rack dispensers on the armored vehicles. As Failure Analysis
Associates concluded in it report, this was the most intensive
use of crowd control chemicals in the history of the United
States.

Methylene chloride is even more dangerous than CS--and five
pounds of MeCl were injected for every ounce of CS. MeCl is
an industrial solvent, with powerful anesthetic properties.
It was once used as paint remover before being banned
for that purpose for being too dangerous to handle.
Both gases are flammable.

In other words, the gases used and the quantities they
were used in were sufficient to kill many of the inhabitants
on contact, especially the young children, and would have been
more or less capable of instantly incapacitating the rest.

Finally, there is the issue of the fire which
destroyed most of the evidence. Edward Allard, a leading
expert in FLIR (forward looking infrared recorder)
stated his conclusions in a court document after
reviewing the official FLIR footage of the final
assault:

"11. At 12:08:32, the FLIR depicts events at the rear
of the building, where the large "gymnasium" structure
has largely been demolished. Two very bright thermal
flashes are visible near to or in the window at the
center, in front of and to one side of the (armored
vehicle) which is stopped there. I see no natural
explanation for these flashes. They would not, for
instance, be reflections of sunlight off glass...

I declare under penalty of perjury that the above is
true and correct."

Source: http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/allard.html

Less than one minute after this hot, bright
sustained flash occurred "in front of and to one
side of the (armored vehicle)", the Mt. Carmel
complex began the process of burning down
Fire department personnel on the scene were told
they could not move forward to put out the fire
until "the danger had passed." The FBI determined
the danger had passed well after the building had
burned to the ground.

* Who commanded "Operation Trojan Horse"?

Let's review the evidence that the US military
was involved in the raid, siege and final
assault on the Branch Davidian complex outside
of Waco, Texas:

1. The training, and probably the tactics, for the raid
were designed by the Army and provided at its base in Ft.
Hood, Texas.
2. At least some military vehicles were at or near
the scene of the initial raid the day it occurred and
nine or more were stationed nearby no later than the day
after.
3. Advanced "non-lethal" military tactics and technologies
were used to surveil and harass the Branch Davidians
in the complex and, as a result, the Mt. Carmel center
quickly became a study destination for special forces
officers from both the US and the UK.
4. The Justice Department admits at least 15 active
duty personnel and 16 armored vehicles (and one
tank retrieval vehicle) were involved in the
operation.
5. Lethal quantities of toxic gas were used in the
final assault and FLIR video documentation shows
that there was a bright flash in the front of one
of the tanks used for spraying the gas less than
one minute before the fire began.
6. Two unnamed high ranking Army officers
personally presented Attorney General Janet
Reno with the final assault tactics for her,
as chief law enforcement officer of the
US, to sign off on.

It sure sounds like a military operation to me.
If so, then who was the military commander behind
Waco?

You can learn a lot from reading a man's resume
which may explain why the US news media has gone
to such great pains to avoid even the suggestion
that General Wesley K. Clark, Supreme Commander
of NATO, had a life before his current exalted
position. But he did and here's his official bio
from the NATO web site:

http://www.shape.nato.int/Biographies/gen_CLARK/GEN_CLAR.htm

Clark was the Commander 1st Cavalry Division, Fort
Hood, Texas from August 1992 to April 1994. The
Mt. Carmel raid was on February 29, 1993. The
arson-murders occurred April 19.

This means he would have been the officer who
authorized and commanded the armored vehicles
used in the raid, the siege, and the final
assault. This alone is sufficient to make Clark
a prime suspect, but there is much more.

Clark came to Fort Hood with an unusual background.
He had been Commander of the National Training Center
(October 1989-October 1991) and Deputy Chief of Staff
for Concepts, Doctrine and Developments, US Army Training
and Doctrine Command (TRADOC), Fort Monroe, Virginia
(October 1991-August 1992) See: http://www-tradoc.army.mil

He was not your typical armor officer. If there were a
high profile, cutting edge training exercise to be conducted
at Ft. Hood, it probably would have been handled, if not
initiated, by him. Here's why:

TRADOC, where Clark was Deputy Chief right before becoming
an armor commander at Ft Hood, has as its primary mission to
"prepare soldiers for war and design the army of the future."
And what will that army look like?

Item number one from the TRADOC vision statement: "...enable
America's Army to operate with joint, multinational and
interagency partners across the full range of operations."
This would include working the ATF and FBI which would have
put Clark in touch with the high ranking officials in both
agencies long before Waco.

Further, Clark's resume explains the mystery of the
quick appearance of special forces study groups at
Waco. His background - was there another officer at
Ft. Hood with similar credentials? - gave him exactly
the kind of clout and professional relationships
needed to arrange for the hosting of special forces
officers from the US and UK at the Mt. Carmel siege
on such short notice.

* Clark's tactics re-emerge in Yugoslavia

There are many similarities between the
war in Yugoslavia and "Operation Trojan Horse"
at Waco, but most of them are part of the conduct
of any US war. Here's a quick short list of
seven:

1. Exert tight information control over a mostly
cooperative US news media
2. Attribute civilian casualty reports to
"propaganda"
3. Declare that the attacks are for humanitarian
purposes, to "stop the bad guy."
4. Break numerous agreements then call
the other side unreliable
5. Offer absurd terms in negotiation
sessions, hide these terms from the public,
then punish the other side for its
recalcitrance in failing to accept a
"reasonable" settlement.
6. Coordinate a propaganda effort against the
other side before the assault (The Waco Tribune-Herald
ran a two part smear piece against Koresh on
Feb 27, 1993, the day before the raid, and on the
morning of entitled, "The Sinful Messiah")
7. Accuse the other side of being responsible
for crimes they did not commit.

In addition to these commonly used tactics,
there are a few unique similarities in tactics
between Waco and Yugoslavia that show Clark's
unique stamp:

1. Symbolic destruction of property
dear to the "bad guy"

Yugoslavia: Milosevic's private home was bombed
repeatedly in spite of the fact that it was not a
military target and was located in a residential
neighborhood.

Waco: Tank operators repeatedly rolled over and
destroyed numerous vehicles belonging to the
church which Karesh, an avid car mechanic, had
personally worked on.

2. Obsession with silencing the victim's "propaganda"

Yugoslavia: Clark repeatedly bombed Yugoslavian
television and radio transmitters and stations,
even though NATO had promised in writing not to
attack stations. Several workers were killed
in these attacks. Clark declared them
"legitimate military targets" though their
only function was news reporting and entertainment.

Waco: One of the first acts of post-raid Waco was
cutting off the complex's phone system to anyone
but the FBI and disabling its short wave radio
system. As the siege wore on, the electricity was
also cut off, turned back on, then cut off again.

3. Mislabeling the nature of the attacking force

Yugoslavia: The war was painted as a NATO operation.
In reality, the vast majority of funding, manpower,
aircraft, targeting and munitions were provided by
the US and the operation was commanded by a US general.
The entire operation was in violation of the
NATO charter, US law, and the UN Charter.

Waco: The assault was painted as an ATF, then FBI
operation. In reality, the training, tactics,
equipment and essential manpower were provided by
the US military and the operation was commanded
by a US general. The entire operation was in violation
of US law.

4. Failure to plan for obvious contingencies

Yugoslavia: No meaningful preparations were
made for the likelihood of large numbers of
refugees, who, after all, the war was
supposedly being fought on behalf of.
However, immense military power was arranged
for.

Waco: No ambulance was on call during the
initial raid in spite of the fact that over
100 armed agents were involved and the complex
housed numerous women and children as well
as men who were thought to be armed. However,
a convoy of armored vehicles was provided
as a "backup."

5. Assuming the victims would "fold"
immediately to a massive show of force

Yugoslavia: It took over 70 days
of terror bombing and attacks on
basic life support services to win
a surrender. Clark initially predicted
settlement in a matter of days.

Waco: Mr. Carmel residents, who, in
keeping with rural Texas culture,
were well armed, (they were also
legally licensed gun dealers),
returned fire on the attacking ATF
agents killing four of them. They
then held out for another 50 days
until being gassed and burned alive.

(It's important to note that the ATF
agents continued firing until they
completely ran out of ammunition.
They then had to retreat one mile
across an open field. Not a single
shot was fired by the Branch Davidians
during their retreat.)

6. Non-combatants were killed in large numbers
"by accident" using the most vicious of weapons.
Video evidence of assaults was "lost" due to
unlikely technical problems

Yugoslavia: Clark's PR people claim the
flight camera malfunctioned in the US warplane
that killed 87 Albanian refugees in Korisa in
Kosovo. Clark's extensive use of cluster bombs and
his targeting of hospitals and other health care
facilities, including old age homes and maternity
wards, is well documented

Waco: Key video taken during the initial raid was
declared "not shot" because, say ATF officials,
the Branch Davidians "jammed" their video camera
operations with "radio signals." (Video people
know this is ridiculous.) The footage from other
videos and still pictures, official and unofficial,
taken during the raid also "disappeared."
The gas attack on the residents of Mt. Carmel
was sheer savagery.

7. And last but not least, tactical incompetence on
an epic scale driven by Clark's desire to have his
accomplishments recorded for posterity on
video.

Yugoslavia: Clark stopped the movement of British troops into
Kosovo to give unprepared US troops a chance to get in
place for a triumphant televised liberation scene. Meanwhile,
the Russian army, which Clark was trying to keep out of
the Kosovo "peacekeeping" mission, marched in and secured
the province's key strategic area, the airport at Pristina.

Waco: Local television news media were informed of
the Mt. Carmel raid the day before and by showing up
at the scene (one news van got lost and reportedly
asked neighbors where the raid was), removed the
surprise element and completely undermined the raid.

The bottom line on Clark's modus operandi:

Murder innocent civilians with cold blooded
viciousness for personal and political gain,
add heavy doses of military incompetence,
then sell it to the President, who is apparently
an eager buyer.

This is the man Bill Clinton, who like Clark
is 50-something, an Arkansas native, and a Rhodes
Scholar, would like to make commander-in-chief for
the defense of the continental U.S.

In the meantime, he intends to be supreme commander
of "peacekeeping" efforts in Kosovo.

One last thing about Clark. In between Waco and Yugoslavia:

"General Clark's last assignment was as Commander-in-Chief,
United States Southern Command, Panama, from June 1996 to
July 1997, where he commanded all U.S. forces and was responsible
for the direction of most U.S. military activities and interests
in Latin America and the Caribbean." - the part of the world where
the US has raised military, police, and paramilitary (death squad)
collaboration to a high art.

More on Wesley Clark's career:
http://www.counterpunch.org/clark.html

More on Waco:
http://www.waco93.com

Full text of this article appears at:
http://www.brasscheck.com/clarkatwaco.html

Copyright: Ken McCarthy, 1999
http://www.brasscheck.com

472 posted on 03/27/2003 7:36:02 PM PST by Poincare ((not a good time for a Frenchish screen name))
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To: Neets
Thanks Neets !

A few of our resident armchair generals, without portfolio, would do themselves a world of good, if they learned how to keep their thoughts to themselves. The LAST thing we need ( and certainly NOT on FR ), is for the gloom & doom moaners to carry on so, about a topic they know almost nothing about. :-)

473 posted on 03/27/2003 9:14:49 PM PST by nopardons
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To: KQQL
Good God, we're less than a week into this, and we are basically surrounding Baghdad, and we OWN the airfields.
474 posted on 03/27/2003 9:16:09 PM PST by seams2me
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To: info_scout
No one cares, dear. ; ^ )

And, I would NEVER want YOU as a " friendly " nor " expert witness in any court case, after the abject lack of knowledge, pomposity, and flagrant disregard of facts, that you've shown on this thread.

475 posted on 03/27/2003 9:21:22 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
>>>And, I would NEVER want YOU as a " friendly " nor " expert witness...<<<

Success speaks for itself. You have a nice day!
476 posted on 03/28/2003 10:02:56 AM PST by info_scout
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To: info_scout
Yada, yada, yada ... and those who blow their own horn,especially when it isn't called for, are full of hot air. ; ^ )
477 posted on 03/28/2003 7:16:21 PM PST by nopardons
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To: KQQL
Wesley Clark ? I'll pass .

But thank you all for the laughter in advance ;)

478 posted on 03/28/2003 8:17:11 PM PST by Ben Bolt
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To: nopardons
"those who blow their own horn,especially when it isn't called for, are full of hot air" -- says the hottest toot-toot-tooter on FR.

Gotta love the great laughs you so inadvertently provide so often kiddo. Thanks.

479 posted on 03/28/2003 10:04:42 PM PST by tpaine
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To: WOSG
We were told by the primary authors of this war that the whole thing would be a "cakewalk," (Kenneth Adelman and Richard Perle) and that the Iraqis would "welcome us with roses" (Donald Rumsfeld). That was the principle reason why PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY (PNAC) eggheads wanted to use only 64,000 troops for their invasion of Iraq. The generals balked, and the initial force level of 250,000, with only 75,000 actually engaged in combat, was a compromise. Perle actually advocated dropping 5,000 paratroopers on Baghdad, and that a force of that size would be sufficient.

There are many problems with the present deployment, and if there are any "armchair generals" around, it was the bunch that came up with this jerryrigged plan, the Perles, the Wolfowitzs and that gang. Let's take a hard look at all of the problems, keeping in mind that the advance is halted for SIX DAYS as the forward troops are short of food and water, with only ONE MEAL PER DAY rations at present. That is that messy supply line problem again.

1. Kuwait is a very small country, as contrasted with Iraq, which is as large as California. You invade Iraq from Kuwait and what you have is a "funnelling" effect, with the funnel actually upside down. You are feeding troops and material from the thin pipe of the funnel out through the thick end. This is not unlike moving troops through mountain passes as we did in Korea as MacArthur approached the Yalu. As the units pass through the thin neck of the funnel, they are vulnerable as you move from a thin front to a wide front, but can only do it one unit at a time. The unit at the other end of the funnel is exposed without support. They got away with it only because Hussein is using Fabian tactics. He let us move in deep with little opposition, trying to let us stretch our supplylines. He is using the cities as fortresses. He could do this for a long time, as Hitler held most of the Channel ports in France to the end of the war.

Kuwait's port is not the best place to bring in supplies, either, and they have to work their way all the way to south of Baghdad.

2. After the first Bush Administration not only abandoned the southern Shiites, but also temporarily lifted the No-Fly Zone, thus allowing Saddam to use helicopter gunships to annihilate them, it is puzzling why any of them would trust us. Even the Kurds, after being betrayed by Kissinger and Nixon in 1975, Bush in 1991, and Clinton in 1996, are somewhat distrustful and are not accepting "the bit" of US control very well. They want Kirkuk, and they will take it whether or not we approve. The Shiites intend to sit on the fence for this fight, and some are still angry about 1991, so they have not been as enthusiastic as our leaders thought they would be, particularly with Iraqi troops holding Basra and other Shiite cities fanatically as fortresses.

British troops have not been able to advance north, thus exposing the right flank of our troops. They have to stay in the south and watch the large force at Basra.

3. Just as the Neo-Cons thought we would not need a large force, they did not think our troops needed the mobile rocket launchers used in Desert Storm, and the Army only received a fraction of them. It would have been difficult to move them along this thin a line of advance anyway, but it would be very useful to have them, as they are good in destroying enemy positions and armor rather than "shocking and awing" them.

4. We have been told that the number of "smart" bombs is anywhere from 90% to 80% of the total bombs being used in this effort. If that is so, I would suspect that there may not be enough bombs for a prolonged campaign, as "smart" bombs are more difficult to assemble, and more expensive, than cast iron or cluster bombs that are just as effective in destroying troop concentrations. I suspect that the Neo-Cons, with their fixation on Baghdad, preferred the "smart" bombs for use on that city, and emphasized that over Air Force close support of infantry. That has been a complaint of General Wallace and others.

5. Remember the "Help Is On the Way" slogan of the 2000 campaign? That was the slogan Bush directed at the military, and was aimed at the eight years of systematic neglect of the needs of the military in equipment, spare parts, and even AMMUNITION, while also weakening training regimens. There has not been sufficient time, from 2001 to the present, to have completely alleviated all of these problems. Troops in the latter Clinton years did not have enough ammunition for training, and the ammunition shortage was still being discussed on Capitol Hill as late as the 2002 budget hearings. So, I suspect there might still be a residual ammunition shortage, and there were tons of cruise missiles and other ordnance fired off by Clinton in Afghanistan, the Sudan, the BALKANS (lots) and in IRAQ (lots again in "Operation Desert Fox" in 1998-1999). I doubt that all of the Clinton expenditures, that were a lot like an effort to unilaterally disarm the United States, have been fully replaced, but that would not discourage the Neo-Cons as they thought this campaign would be a "cakewalk." Now, I would like any of them to explain to me just how any campaign against a regime that supposedly BRISTLES with weapons of mass destruction, to the point that invasion was the only option to take out those weapons, could possibly refer to such an invasion as a "cakewalk," yet they did so refer to it. As the Neo-Cons thought the war would be a "cakewalk," despite the huge cache of WMD Hussein had stashed here and there, and that a force as low as 5,000 paratroopers could take Baghdad, or a force of 68,000 could seize the entire country, I can't see why they would think that a large quantity of ordnance would have to be expended. Therefore, I suspect the level of available ordnance is a problem right now.

7. Now, let's address the issue of Syria and Iran. Presently, Rumsfeld has been threatning those nations, and Syrian dictator Assad knows he is on the list of PNAC for "regime change." So do the Mullahs in Iran. Unfortunately for the Neo-Cons, they PUBLISHED their plans years before assuming so many defense positions in this Administration, and the regimes in Syria and Iran have read them. They know they are next, and now we are getting bellicose with them. Take a look at the map of the region. Syria is on the left flank of the 3rd Division. Iran is on the right flank of the Marines. All we need is for these countries to intervene with their troops, tanks, and PLANES (they may be Arab countries, but they do have air forces). PNAC bluntly stated in their papers, available worldwide, that even if Hussein was dead, they would still invade, as they wanted Iraq as a military base to operate against the other targeted regimes.

8. With only 75,000 engaged in a PNAC-driven race for Baghdad, the troops have been on the move and engaged almost round-the-clock for days at a time. They are exhausted. There are no reserves, so they face having to knock out the Republican Guard and then (get this) seize a city of over FOUR MILLION PEOPLE, many of whom legally own automatic weapons. We couldn't take Basra, a city of one million with a population supposedly hostile to Hussein. Now we expect 75,000 men to take a city that WE HAVE BOMBED. In WWII, it took MILLIONS of Russian troops to seize Berlin.

It is easy to say to green teenagers, "LET'S ROLL!" and that a plan that has truly put them in a tactically dicey (to put it mildly) position when the only "rolling" we have to do is "roll" into our easy chairs to enjoy a beer while watching people get smart bombed on TV. Now, Rummy wants the 3rd Division to engage the Republican Guard without the 4th Mechanized being deployed.

I am proud of those soldiers. I don't like to see them used to actualize some eggheads' utopian vision of a "democratized" Middle East. That vision has already been dashed as the "cakewalk" scenario is no longer operative.

The American People have not been told that this is the start of "World War IV," as one Council on Foreign Relations egghead confessed in front of a video camera that she did not know was controlled by conservative talk show host Alex Jones of Austin, Texas. The American People have not been told that, yes, Syria, Iran, et. al. are also to be invaded and "democratized," or whatever it is the eggheads want to do to those countries. Jones will have the videotape of this very revealing conference available shortly, and audio should be available this week.

We have been conned.

480 posted on 03/29/2003 6:20:41 PM PST by roughrider
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