Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

[exmarine]

Fundamentalists reject authority other than their own. They reject scientific authority that conflicts with fundamentalism, they reject governmental authority that conflicts with fundamentalism, and they reject religious authority that conflicts with fundamentalism.

Fundamentalist have scripture as their authority, and when theories conflict with scripture, they are false theories; when govt. authority conflicts with God-given rights or lifestyle, govt. is to be defied (as Bonhofer defied the Nazis); when a church rejects scripture as the ultimate authority, we expose that church for its heresy. Any questions?

[js1138]

You know, there is some off-and-on theoretical discussion being done over at ARN about Multiple-Designer Theory (MDT). This is where multiple designers are posited, each one designing organisms that are inherently in opposition to each other: flagellar bacteria vs. humans, wasps vs. caterpillars, infectious agents in general vs. hosts with immune systems, predators vs. prey, etc.

I'm pretty sure that we will get some fancy footwork about who designed diseases that kill infants. Satan?

Actually dysentery is rather pleasant compared to some parasites.

[VadeRetro]

Astonishing clinical progress in one who has seemed hopeless. Apparently, public concessions are impossible but private concessions are concievable.

Now he needs to realize that whether the discussion is public or private, if you're going to continue to argue a position, you've got to stay as square with all the pertinent facts as you possibly can. That means eating the crow while it's warm.

[balrog666]

Any questions?

You got a mouse in your pocket? Who is "we"?

[VadeRetro]

Meant to add you on 4123.

[VadeRetro]

If I'm getting the drift from the Witch Doctors correctly, the flagellum, that poster child of Design, should not be attributed to God. To do so is "disgusting."

I'll never get anywhere in Theology.

[js1138]

Although the disputants here will never agree with each other, I have notice some progress recently. There has been a significant decline in the rate of posting bogus, manufactured, out-of-context quotes (I should keep a spreadsheet on this one). We will eventually see a drop in the frequency of posts claiming that Darwin was not a scientist. I'm holding my breath on the vitamin c thing.

[PatrickHenry]

I'll never get anywhere in Theology.

Platypus yes; flagellum no. What's so difficult about that?

[js1138]

If not God, then who? Does Satan have the necessary level of omniscience to tap into the ecosystem and create hundreds of millions of separate, distinct kinds of organisms, all perfectly tuned to the preditor/prey, parasite/host relationship? Inquiring minds want to know just how one goes about designing living things.

[AndrewC]

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

[PatrickHenry]

I have notice some progress recently. There has been a significant decline in the rate of posting bogus, manufactured, out-of-context quotes ...

No letup in bogus claims about the imaginary Karl Marx connection. Hitler references seem to be slowing down -- since I found that creationist-oriented quote in Mein Kampf. I don't think this stuff will ever really end. It's like the predictable re-appearances of the Protocals of Zion. Some moron stumbles onto some tossed-away junk, and imagines that he's really discovered something.

[VadeRetro]

Inquiring minds want to know just how one goes about designing living things.

The important thing, as the Demo-greenies have explained, is the Environmental Impact Assessment.

[RadioAstronomer]

Your detailed, insightful posts are welcome relief to the noise level that sometimes dominates these threads, and serve as an excellent Troll repellent.

Thanks! :-)

[VadeRetro]

I guess the key section was this:

I make peace, and create evil.

A surprisingly bland admission. Does He know He's undercutting ALS?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply and agreement!

[js1138]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

I was aware of this sentiment from Job. It does have a nice consistency to it.

I guess the question should be, is the creation of evil a deliberate act, or a side effect? An theistic evolutionist would argue that evil happens because the structure of reality includes enough freedom for unplanned things to evolve, not necessarily because E. coli seemed like a good idea.

Since these things are beyond our capacity to understand, I approach them intutitively. I believe God and we are alive, meaning capable of change, not crystalized in some predetermined, static image.

[RadioAstronomer]

Fundamentalist have scripture as their authority, and when theories conflict with scripture, they are false theories

How do you discern what is the correct scripture (or interpretation)?

Wouldn't you be embarrassed to find some obscure tribe in Africa actually has it right and all these others including Christianity has missed the mark.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Gentlemen. I am truly impressed and inspired. Thank you for ending my week on a high note.

[Alamo-Girl]

I know y'all didn’t ask me, but I’ve pondered at length on the subject of why creation includes good and evil and I do have a few ideas I’d like to share for the discussion. This is an excerpt from my larger article, Evolution Through the Back Door

One of the words used to describe God at creation is Ayn Sof which roughly translated from Hebrew means infinite and nothing. The scientific term for such a state at the beginning of this universe, is singularity - in which there are no physical laws, no space, no time, no particles, no geometry, no energy, nothing - and yet everything. It has a parallel in math as well, the number zero - nothing can be divided by it, anything multiplied by it is it, it is in between all positive and negative numbers. Infinite and not at the same time.

I pondered on this state at length and deduced that God must have wanted to reveal Himself and thus there was a beginning.

Then I pondered how God would go about revealing Himself. I deduced He would create beings who could think to whom He would reveal Himself and would commune. I further deduced how He would go about communicating Himself to these beings, i.e. that He is good and truth and so forth.

These attributes would have no meaning in any language unless they were set in contrast to what they are not. (How would you know if you are happy if you have never been sad?) Thus, I pondered that He would create good and evil, love and hate, et al so that a language could be formed, the Word.

I then pondered He would communicate His will to the thinking beings so they would know Him. I also pondered that, for the words to have meaning, He would give them numerous manifestations of all these contrasts - space/time, geometry, particles, energy, matter, creatures.

One of the ideas of the Jewish Kabbalah that rings true to my spirit is that the Scriptures are another name for God, i.e. it reveals who He is. So I see all of creation - spiritual and material - and the Word as God revealing Himself.

Enter Satan, beautiful and thinking being as he is, decided he ought to exalted. He became "aware" of his beauty and self and thus was at odds with God's will for him.

Likewise, Adam and Eve became "aware" of themselves and sought to be more by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. So likewise, they were at odds with God's will for them and were banished to mortality (the frog view [in Tegmark’s article].)

When it is all said and done [His kingdom come] I see us restored to what was intended at the beginning, we will be the thinking beings to whom God reveals Himself and with whom He communes. His will is what matters over all else. The Lord's Prayer reveals as much, the meaning of life and the purpose of our existence:

Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

IMHO, every believer ought to meditate deeply, every day, on the Lord's Prayer - phrase by phrase and word by word. Our place is sandwiched between God's purpose and His dominion.

My two cents...

[js1138]

I do wonder sometimes why the design folks like to post pictures of raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, but seldom take time to smell the leish-maniasis. I have no hostility towards creation, provided we are free actors on the stage, able to rearrange the props.

Healing is one of the approved calls, but it requires knowledge, and knowledge requires curiosity, and curiosity requires fearlessness about what will be found. One of the great tragedies of Western religion is the conflation of knowledge with sin, curiosity with heresy and atheism.