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Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]
Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: longshadow
watch love your children wayne gacy jeffrey dahmer science going to grandmas placemaker !
4,221 posted on 07/18/2003 11:43:44 AM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: scripter
Thanks for the link.

I didn't realize when I created my screen name that it would be a problem. Changes on FR have made it a little better for now, but for awhile there it couldn't be typed at all, you had to reply. But I'm too stubborn to change it.

4,222 posted on 07/18/2003 11:46:14 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: f.Christian
God ain't no religion ideology and evo NAZI hate schlock is big time witch cult (( big separation necessary here )) placemaker !

You and I are going to have to learn to post pictures!

;^)

4,223 posted on 07/18/2003 11:48:54 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Alamo-Girl
How could you teach your students obedience without describing disobedience?

Actually, it can be done. I find the word obedience to have some baggage I'd rather not carry. I would prefer to ask, how can you teach children to live in conformity with morality. Christian morality is something other than a list of rules to be obeyed. It requires a positive or proactive effort, not just to obey rules but to love, to make things better. It is not enough to refrain from hurting people. You need to apply your intelligence to protecting the weak and building political and economic institutions that reward fair play.

In the case of children it is rather simple. Be the kind of person you want your children to be. When the store clerk gives you too much change, explain to your children that you have to go back and return the money, because the clerk is responsible for errors.

Now is this easy to do, and have I always been this perfect? Absolutely not, but I tried.

The only credentials I bring to these discussions are in psychology and special education. I can assure from both theory and from experience raising my kids, that it is easier and more effective to teach them what you want them to do than to teach what you want them not to do. If someone wants to stay on the road, you do not need such enormous siderails.

4,224 posted on 07/18/2003 11:51:00 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
Thank you so very much for your response! You raise some excellent points and I certainly agree with positive reinforcement in raising children.

But what reason do you give the kids for locking the house, not talking to strangers, not running into the street, not playing with snakes?

4,225 posted on 07/18/2003 11:57:58 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: longshadow
A "Billy Goats Gruff" placemarker.
4,226 posted on 07/18/2003 11:59:49 AM PDT by Junior (Killed a six pack ... just to watch it die.)
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To: balrog666
Jesus was innocent ... He was born w / o sin - took on the fallen nature of man --- but the enormity of our punishment He suffered and died for !

Whatever you think or do in comparison would be like bacteria - belching - rot !
4,227 posted on 07/18/2003 12:01:51 PM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: exmarine
First, you ignored 3 of the 5 evidences I gave.

Tis true. Sorry...

1. Manuscript evidence: There are over 15,000 manuscripts of the OT and NT which prove that the bible has been preserved over the centuries...

I don't deny this. But just being old doesn't mean anything to me. There are plenty of old religious texts. This isn't supernatural evidence of anything.

2. Archeology: Over 5,000 artifacts and finds have confirmed the truth of biblical passages but not one find has conclusively controverted any bible passage...

I don't deny this. There are plenty of old artifacts found to corroborate many things. This isn't supernatural evidence of anything.

4. The life of Jesus Christ Himself: Jesus Christ claimed He was the Son of God come to take away the sins of the world and rise again from the dead. He made the wildest claims possible, yet is considered to be a "good man and wise teacher" even by skeptics. No one who makes the claims He made can be considered a good man or wise teacher. He was either who He claimed to be, or he was a liar, or he was a lunatic. Those are the only options.

This is actually interesting, and a new take on things. I don't deny Jesus existed. You've caught me though, b/c I've always (as one who attaches no deistic quality to the man) been one of those who say, "he's was a good man and wise teacher." I guess I've justified it by saying that he never claimed he was the son of god, but rather that others tagged him with that after his death. I'll stick with that, but I may have to revise it.

This is a very deep scholarly topic and in order to even argue the point you would have to have an in depth knowledge of hebrew language and hermeneutics. But, there are roughly over 300 prophecies that have been attributed to Christ.

You caught me again, I don't know Hebrew or hermeneutics. I have no desire to learn them either. I'd be quite interested in a clearly laid out case for the prophesies. Now, mind you, any prophesy that he stated that already happened won't count for much. Give me 2000 years to make some open ended guesses, and I assure you, I'll do quite well. You'd think an omnipotent would be a bit more clear with things... you know, dates, names, places and stuff. Plenty of fools believe John Edward or Sylvia Brown have a gift. They don't. Neither did Nostradamus and neither did Jesus himself.
4,228 posted on 07/18/2003 12:03:57 PM PDT by whattajoke
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To: Alamo-Girl
But what reason do you give the kids for locking the house, not talking to strangers, not running into the street, not playing with snakes?

Every child experiences pain as natural consequence of ordinary activities. These do not need to be taught. One of the first words any kid should learn is "dangerous" or "hurt" or some equivalent. As a child learns to talk and reason, these words can be applied to situations that are not obvious to the child.

I might add, that nearly all the swats my kids ever received were to reinforce the avoidance of danger.

I know some theologians define sin as separation from God, rather than jusr rule-breaking. I'm pretty sure that most children, given a consistent family environment, will do whatever is necessary to avoid being separated from the love of their parents. If this is "obedience", so be it, but it doesn't require a long list of explicit negative rules.

4,229 posted on 07/18/2003 12:19:07 PM PDT by js1138
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To: whattajoke
This is actually interesting, and a new take on things. I don't deny Jesus existed. You've caught me though, b/c I've always (as one who attaches no deistic quality to the man) been one of those who say, "he's was a good man and wise teacher." I guess I've justified it by saying that he never claimed he was the son of god, but rather that others tagged him with that after his death. I'll stick with that, but I may have to revise it.

I have entertained this thought, but I'm pretty sure it is a stretch. The Jesus of the Bible seems pretty confident that he is divine, not just a teacher. It's possible that his words have been incorrectly recorded, but this seems to lead nowhere. Personally I can believe that some people and some words can be inspired without worrying about whether I am dealing with the actual voice of God mucking about in the natural order, or the words of a charlatan or lunatic. It just doesn't matter to me. The truth of moral teachings is not dependent on the source.

I know this is a heresy, and I don't care.

4,230 posted on 07/18/2003 12:31:15 PM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
When the store clerk gives you too much change, explain to your children that you have to go back and return the money, because the clerk is responsible for errors.

You just described the "wrong" action.

4,231 posted on 07/18/2003 12:38:33 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: whattajoke
I don't deny this. But just being old doesn't mean anything to me. There are plenty of old religious texts. This isn't supernatural evidence of anything.

What it does show is the intact preservation of the scriptures over the centuries, which is very important. It goes to reliability.

guess I've justified it by saying that he never claimed he was the son of god, but rather that others tagged him with that after his death. I'll stick with that, but I may have to revise it.

If you stick to that, then you will be going against Jesus' words in the gospels. Are you then saying that the gospels that record His words are wrong? When studying any ancient text, a good scholar will give the writer the benefit of the doubt unless there is other evidence that the writer's account is not true. Since we know that historians take Tacitus, Suetonius, Caesar, Herodotus, and other historians at the word, why do you doubt the accuracy of the writers of the gospels? Do you doubt ALL historical texts or just this one? (remember, the gospels have been traced back to the 1st century). I might also add that Sir William Ramsey (perhaps the greatest archeologist of the 19th century) set out to disprove the accuracy (as to places, names, etc.) of the book of Luke and Acts. What he found not only confirmed the meticulous accuracy of Luke's account, but resulted in Ramsey's conversion.

I'd be quite interested in a clearly laid out case for the prophesies.

Pick up a copy of Evidence that Demands a Verdict (Josh McDowell).

You'd think an omnipotent would be a bit more clear with things... you know, dates, names, places and stuff.

They were clear enough for Paul to use them to convert people. For starters, read these scriptures and then tell me how clear they are: Micah 5:2 (place of birth), Is. 7:14 (virgin birth), Is. Chap. 53 (suffering Messiah and atonement), Is. 9:6, Psalm 22 (crucifixion), Zech. 12:10 (crucifixion).

Plenty of fools believe John Edward or Sylvia Brown have a gift. They don't. Neither did Nostradamus and neither did Jesus himself.

Jesus didn't have what gift?

4,232 posted on 07/18/2003 12:42:59 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: js1138; scripter
Thank you so much for your reply!

I know some theologians define sin as separation from God, rather than jusr rule-breaking. I'm pretty sure that most children, given a consistent family environment, will do whatever is necessary to avoid being separated from the love of their parents. If this is "obedience", so be it, but it doesn't require a long list of explicit negative rules.

Truly, I would that you would spend some time in Romans 1-8, especially Romans 8. Spirit-filled Christians are free from the law of sin and death:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. - Romans 8:2 Without giving away the details in Romans, I would mention that a reader will discover:

(a) the law exists to show that we cannot be "good enough"

(b) that if anyone tries to be "good enough" to get to heaven, He will let them and they will fail (if it were possible to be "good enough" then Christ would have died for nothing) - and

(c) that by faith in Christ we are more than just free from the law, we are adopted into the family.

Indeed, I'd be in big trouble if God kept a balance sheet on me. But I know that He does not because I do not keep a balance sheet on anyone else (Matthew 7).

BTW, another question on child-rearing. If you have survived a teenage rebellion (when the parent don't know anything anymore) - how'd you do it?

4,233 posted on 07/18/2003 12:43:16 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138
pond scum talking evo gospel science placemaker !
4,234 posted on 07/18/2003 12:45:03 PM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: AndrewC
What about all the people who were born before 33 AD? Did they all go to hell? Even the Prophets? And what about all the people all over the world who never heard of Jesus? Are they damned, too?

What does it take to be saved? Faith, according to Protestants. Is faith in God enough?
4,235 posted on 07/18/2003 12:51:10 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Never voted for a Democrat in my life.)
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To: whattajoke
I guess I've justified it by saying that he never claimed he was the son of god, but rather that others tagged him with that after his death.

Jesus' favorite term for himself was the Son of Man, which is an interesting study in itself. Was Jesus the Son of God? Well, he claimed to be God when he said in John 8:58, which somebody previously posted:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
The following online commentary offers some hints as to what he meant.
Jesus' reference to Abraham sounds to the opponents like an incredible claim to spiritual experience. His reply to their incredulity pushes his claim far beyond the idea of vision whether mystical or otherwise, whether of the past or through ascents into heaven: I tell you the truth . . . before Abraham was born, I am! (v. 58). He is not just making a statement of his age, for then he would have said something like, "Before Abraham was born, I was" (Carson 1991:358). Rather, he is now using in an unambiguous way the divine I AM (Harner 1970:26-30). The I AM was the name of God revealed to Moses, though the Greek expression (ego eimi) is not that used in the Septuagint in Exodus 3:14 (ho on). The phrase ego eimi is used of the divine name in Isaiah (41:4; 43:10, 25; 45:18; 46:4; 47:8, 10; 51:12; 52:6). Isaiah 43:10 is a particularly significant passage since it includes a reference to the Lord's chosen servant (pais) who is his witness, "so that you may know and believe and understand that I am he [hoti ego eimi]. There was no other god before me nor will there be after me." This strong statement of monotheism is the very thing the opponents think Jesus' claim is denying.

By using the I AM Jesus is claiming to have existed not just at the time of Abraham, but from eternity. This is not only a statement about his salvific work, though that is implied here as it was in God's self-identification at the bush (Schnackenburg 1980b:224). Rather, he is saying that his words and deeds are not about God; they are in fact God's own words and deeds. He speaks in language of oneness, though he has just clearly expressed distinctness also (vv. 54-55). Jesus is God, though not simply by way of identification with Yahweh, for there is also distinction. He is not simply a human being who has been taken up into the divine counsels and made an agent of God unlike any other, but neither is he simply God in a suit of flesh. Rather, as the later church counsels said, he is fully God and fully man. Such formulations are based on revelation such as found in this passage.

Clearly this is the climax of the revelation that has been unfolding during the Feast of Tabernacles. People have been wondering if Jesus is the Prophet or the Messiah. "But messianic categories are transcended when Jesus offers Himself as the source of living water, and as the light of the world, and finally pronounces the ego eimi which affirms the mystery of His own eternal being, in unity with the Father" (Dodd 1953:351).

Source

I don't have time to write anything else, so sorry for the hit and run for now.

4,236 posted on 07/18/2003 12:52:19 PM PDT by scripter (There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
If you have survived a teenage rebellion (when the parent don't know anything anymore) - how'd you do it?

I could pretend to be a superparent, but the truth is my genetic line tends to produce late bloomers (code word for nerds). By the time we hit the hormones we are older and wiser than most. For some reason, my house was always the one that my kids' friends wanted to hang out at. My wife an I are pretty laid back and like to talk to kids, but we aren't dopers and don't consume much alcohol (there's no beer in the fridge). So the bottom line is, my kids were usually home, along with a tribe of their friends.

My daughter was especially lucky in school. She got into a college prep program within the public school system. Nothing is life is more fortunate than having peer pressure work in your favor.

I think the answer to your question is we had good luck.

4,237 posted on 07/18/2003 12:54:54 PM PDT by js1138
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To: Lurking Libertarian
>>I have heard some Christians claim that Satan was the creator of disease and other ills.<<

That's the Albigensian heresy. I thought those guys were killed off or died off in the 14th century.

Maybe they morphed into Protestants. Not mainstream, at least according to my husband, who is Lutheran.
4,238 posted on 07/18/2003 12:56:58 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Never voted for a Democrat in my life.)
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To: AndrewC
So teach me what the correct action is. Are you refering to returning money that was incorrectly given to me, or are you referring to the explanation given for returning it?
4,239 posted on 07/18/2003 12:57:37 PM PDT by js1138
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Thank you for the link.
4,240 posted on 07/18/2003 1:02:53 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Never voted for a Democrat in my life.)
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