Posted on 01/28/2005 6:45:05 AM PST by blackminorcapullets
"If you want to know why Angleton gave Golitsyn access to the files (not the names on those files btw) read Edward Jay Epstein's book "Deception." You may also want to visit his webite if you are truly interested in finding out more."
Two things - 1.) There is NEVER a reason to share information on American personnel with foreign nationals - NEVER, and 2.) Golitsyn was the biggest source of information for Jay Epstein (who know swallows Berezovsky's propaganda hook line and sinker). I've been to his website, it's humorous.
22 years in the service - I didn't learn Russian in college.......(and I have ZERO Russian heritage)
One of my favorite memories is lifting East Germans on to the Wall at Brandenburg Tor so they could celebrate their first steps into freedom (About 2 weeks after being chased by the Stasi border guards). Also had the opportunity to witness "communist" totalitarian repression first hand in the 80s and 90s, see the mistakes made in post-Soviet world, see some of the progress made (a long way still to go), and get to meet a lot of very interesting people.
And, btw, the quote damning Bolshevism is from Alexandr Yakovlev. Before you dismiss him again, I recommend you read his works. Especially "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia." - He doesn't reinvent his role in the Soviet government. Very candid.
If you're a YAF member why do you disparage Reagan's defeat of the Soviet threat with worship of Golitsyn's crackpot theories? What Golitsyn is really saying,is that if you believe his "theories" Reagan was duped. I, for one, do not believe that.
Look, the real threat the Russians are to the world is another implosion and the break up of the country into several mini-states. They really are not communist. If anything, they are leaning nationalist, in the Tsarist tradition. The "communists" you keep mentioning were indeed in the Communist party - during Soviet times that was the only way to get ahead and get bennies. After the fall of the Soviet Union a lot of these guys used their connections (and corruption) to get into business. They could give a rat's butt about the proletariat - it's all about how they can enrich themselves. The real Communists, such as Lapshin, Seleznev, and Zyuganov and co are slipping, slipping, slipping away, dwarfed by the success of the nationalist-leaning Edinaya Rossiya party. The so-called "democrats" (Khamadova, Nemtsov[I had high hopes for him], Gaidar, Yavlinsky, Chubais) embraced a lot of the oligarchs, who are not popular with the common folk, this cost them their seats in the latest convocation of the GosDuma.
So, what I've been trying to get across to you is that the "World wide communist consipiracy" is long dead. Russia's moves are an echo of the Tsarist Empire-building past - sticking to the near abroad. Even this will not be realized until they get a grip on corruption, over bureaucratization of government services, lack of proper services, health care, a conscript army, unsafe transportation, the lack of adherence to the rule of law, etc., etc., etc. Russia is controlled "chaos." If you have money, anything goes. In short, the time for Golitsyn's scenario about the fake liberalism, etc., has long since passed.
Why don't you try getting your nose out of all those books and go see for yourself? I'd even be willing to show you around. You'll see where your perceptions are wrong and where they are right.
"Why don't you try getting your nose out of all those books and go see for yourself? I'd even be willing to show you around. You'll see where your perceptions are wrong and where they are right."
Sorry, I'll have to pass on your kind offer. It's not that I don't trust you, but if I ever step foot in Russia I don't want anyone to know who I am. Call me paranoid if you wish, but given my position on the "former" Soviet Union, I'm sure you can appreciate where I'm coming from.
"If you're a YAF member why do you disparage Reagan's defeat of the Soviet threat with worship of Golitsyn's crackpot theories? What Golitsyn is really saying,is that if you believe his "theories" Reagan was duped. I, for one, do not believe that."
I believe virtually everyone got duped by the Soviets, save certain intel. officers, British MPs, US Congressmen (one of which who was shot down by the Soviets while aboard KAL 007), and certain key leaders in the Conservative movement. But they were drowned out by the global euporia over the "collapse" of the Soviet Union--TTS
Sorry Koba, I posted this one to myself...I meant it for you.
Posted by TapTheSource to TapTheSource
On Bloggers & Personal 02/04/2005 10:16:15 PM PST · 213 of 225
"Dissatisfied with a negative response to his proposal from the CIA, Golitsyn went to England. From March to July 1963 he spent long hours with Stephen De Mowbray of MI6 and Arthur Martin and Peter Wright of MI5, who supported his views and supported him."
So much for your assertion that "Golitsyn told the CIA whatever it wanted to hear." BTW, doesn't it give you pause when you contemplate De Mowbray, Arthur Martin, and Peter Wright supported Golitsyn?
Excellent work, TTS has been pushing Golytsin and his paranoia for his entire time, all three reincarnations, here. Golytsin did more damage to America then good, by far.
During the Cold War he was busy compiling 20-30 year old articles to try to bash us on the head with them 15 years after the Cold War. The man's genius is frightening. /sarcasm
I hope you realize you're wasting your breath on TTS. He's got the tin hat market cornored and he isn't about to change. Don't bother with him directly, just counter his lies.
The sad thing is people who rant and rave about the Golitsyn (and Epstein, etc) type of "revelations" don't even realize they're more damaging than the "fellow travelers" and libs. Why? Because they scream about claims that are so ridiculous and easily debunked that they numb and distract from the real dangers. Of course, there are those who believe that was all part of Golitsyn's plan.
Golitsyn's analysis of the GKChP of August '91 is hilarious - if his analysis of '91's events were correct, can he explain the attempt at taking over the country in Oct '93? Not in a rational manner.
Unlike the other defectors of his time, Golitsyn continues to refuse to allow access to himself to be challenged, debated on his claims. He uses the "they'll kill me as I'm the most reviled of the defectors," but he's not even considered important enough to make the list of traitors on most security service related sites and is consipicously absent from the KGB museum exhibit on traitors.
And Epstein, well he's an interesting fellow isn't he. He backs claims that the FSB blew up the apartment buildings in Moscow, based on testimony from a corrupt former FSB agent and a man named Gochiyaev. Gochiyaev, who claims he has no terrorist connections, was photographed on 5 occasions with Khattab and Basaev - the organizers of the terrorist attacks. But, since Epstein's fame is so closely tied with Golitsyn's false claims he has to discount all of this and claim Putin ordered the bombings in order to justify the resumption of war with the Chechen bandits.
"I believe virtually everyone got duped by the Soviets, save certain intel. officers, British MPs, US Congressmen (one of which who was shot down by the Soviets while aboard KAL 007), and certain key leaders in the Conservative movement. But they were drowned out by the global euporia over the "collapse" of the Soviet Union--TTS"
Wow, a lot of guys out there just much dumber than you, eh? Because you have access to all the information they did? Global euphoria over the collapse of the Soviet Union? And deservedly so. I guess you base your observations on seeing a communist country, repression, etc., and then comparing it to how it is there now? Oh, that's right - you won't go over there 'cause you criticized them in letters to newspapers??!?!?!
You still haven't answered my questions about Golitsyn. Why won't you?
You haven't answer my questions about why Golitsyn was provided access to CIA agents personnel files, why Golitsyn isn't listed as a traitor in the KGB musuem, and on Russian sites that publish such lists, why he wasn't sentenced to death in absentia, how his musings after the GKChP in August '91 didn't come true and how does he explain the events of Oct '93. Etc., etc., And, while I'm at it can you explain Epstein's willingness to believe Berezovsky's anti-Putin propoganda on the Apartment bombings when there are pictures of the so-called "innocent" Gochiyaev with Basaev and Khattab. I answered you're questions on the so-called communist elite - not going to spell out each and every one of the guys - you didn't answer my questions about the 2 (at least 2) on that list who are sworn enemies of Putin. You also side-stepped Yakovlev's claims by denouncing him, but offer no examples of how he is wrong.
You know, Golitsyn staked his reputation on claiming Nosenko was a mole. Hmmm, Nosenko sentenced to death in absentia, Goltisyn - nary a word. Beware of the false prophets.
You see, that's the new former KGB retirement plan. Not smart enough or ballsy enough to start your own mob or be hired by a government/corportation? Why come to America, write an "insider's" book and make a fortune of the rampant paranoia.
"Miles Seeley writes: "I do have a lot of stories about James Jesus Angleton, most of which I will not tell because I honor my oath when I entered the CIA. Since so much of it is public now, I will comment that when I came back from Amman, I was assigned the task of re-evaluating the Nosenko case and putting it, finally, to rest. I assembled a team and we went over everything. To us, it was clear that Nosenko had been a legitimate defector. This conclusion displeased many conspiracy theorists, and certainly Mr. Anglelton, but it ultimately prevailed, largely due to the support I got from some very senior CIA officials. Nosenko was released and, I heard later, adapted quite well to freedom and a private life. I am very glad.
My few direct meetings with Mr. Angleton were strange indeed, since he was a distinctly different man from anyone else I knew in the Agency. My role in those meetings was to listen to him and say little or nothing. Then I would go back and get to work. I managed to have destroyed the majority of the files that had been assembled on CIA employees who were suspected of being "moles," ie agents of the KGB. They were a shameful collection of innuendo, rumor, and falsehoods. The head of Security and the Deputy Director for Plans (DDP) backed me up on that, too, and DCI Richard Helms approved."
Of course, since Miles Seeley didn't spend the Cold War parroting the false prophesies of Golitsyn he too is a dupe, or part of the world-wide communist conspiracy.
If only you, TTS, could tap any of the russian search engines on the net (like yandex.ru or aport.ru), and type in "Red Horizons" or "Anatoliy Golitsyn", it would have returned hundreds of links. Sometimes your assumtions are pretty baseless and weak.
I didnt say the internet, now did I??? I wonder how many Golitsyn books are floatin around Russia, hmmm??? When is the last time you saw a copy in a used bookstore in Russia, for instance?
TTS - That would depend on whether or not Golitsyn "shopped" his books for a Russian distributor. You can easily find books written by Gordievsky, Edmund Pope, Paul Klebanov, Suvorov (one of the most popular authors for that genre), and a myriad of other authors who write about the KGB, the GRU, Putin, anti-Russian, anti-Soviet, etc., etc.. My library is full of them. Once again you are speaking about something that you have no knowledge about.
Russian bookstores are fantastic and cheap. And, you can find a book on just about any topic. If Golitsyn's book isn't available in Russia it's because he hasn't had it translated.
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