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Firefox Is Heading Towards Trouble (rotting from the inside out)
TheServerSide.Net ^

Posted on 03/15/2005 8:07:44 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper

Firefox Is Heading Towards Trouble

Posted by: Mike Griffin on March 11, 2005 @ 10:45 AM

FireFox may be in danger of "rotting from the inside out" according to industry experts including one of the developers on the FireFox review team. Lack of attention by developers and money from supporters may end the meteoric rise of the browser where it is today.

Forget about Microsoft coming out with IE 7 to challenge Firefox. If Firefox rots from the inside out; the way so many other programs, like the original Netscape browser, did; then it's not going anywhere much beyond where it is now.

In an EWeek article, the author declares his support for FireFox but raises serious concerns with how the project is being managed.

I think Firefox is the best browser on the planet, but it's not going to stay that way long unless the team behind it gets their act together sooner rather than later.

Mike Connor, a core Firefox developer, writes in his blog,

"In nearly three years, we haven't built up a community of hackers around Firefox, for a myriad of reasons, and now I think we're in trouble. Of the six people who can actually review in Firefox, four are AWOL, and one doesn't do a lot of reviews. And I'm on the verge of just walking away indefinitely, since it feels like I'm the only person who cares enough to make it an issue."

Finally the author ends the article with this summary.

If the Mozilla Foundation and Firefox friends like Google don't start spending money—right now—to hire more programmers, more project managers and more servers, it won't matter how many ads in the New York Times Firefox supporters take out, Firefox will have already reached its high tide of popularity and we can only wait for the ebb to begin.

Read the entire EWeek article

You can also read Mike Connor's Blog Here.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: communists; firefox; gateskneepadder; ie; microsoft; oss; redmondshill; showmethemoney
Looks like Firefox is heading down the tubes. This is from Mike Connor's blog (a core Firefox developer) and a eweek article. Is the fabled promise of OSS development failing?
1 posted on 03/15/2005 8:07:45 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Yup... This is what did in Linux.


2 posted on 03/15/2005 8:09:54 PM PST by Redcloak (There is no "I" in team. But then again, there is no "us" in it either. There is "meat" however.)
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To: rdb3; chance33_98; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Bush2000; PenguinWry; GodGunsandGuts; CyberCowboy777; ...

Tech Ping


3 posted on 03/15/2005 8:10:10 PM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

maybe google.com should take over firefox.


4 posted on 03/15/2005 8:10:15 PM PST by scab4faa (Wanted : TAGLINE Dead or Alive $500 reward)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: GeorgiaFreeper
Looks like Firefox is heading down the tubes

Mine still seems to be working.
6 posted on 03/15/2005 8:11:50 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Yardbird

Being forced to work for free doesn't work. Volunteerism, on the other hand, seems to work rather well.


7 posted on 03/15/2005 8:12:33 PM PST by Redcloak (There is no "I" in team. But then again, there is no "us" in it either. There is "meat" however.)
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To: Allan

Bump


8 posted on 03/15/2005 8:12:36 PM PST by Allan
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: GeorgiaFreeper

If this is true, then I am devastated. I fell in love with Firefox the first time I used it. The tabbed function is divine.
I don't EVER want to use that P.O.C. IE browser EVER again!


10 posted on 03/15/2005 8:14:36 PM PST by srm913
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Google ought to just but Mozilla and Firefox with it. I read recently that Google may be building its own operating system, they might as well have a great browser to go along with it. If Google is building a OS I'm there, I hate MS products, half the time they don't work right.


11 posted on 03/15/2005 8:15:31 PM PST by AKSurprise
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To: Yardbird

I see your point. This is why the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Boy Scouts, and so many other volunteer groups have gone down the tubes.


12 posted on 03/15/2005 8:16:18 PM PST by Redcloak (There is no "I" in team. But then again, there is no "us" in it either. There is "meat" however.)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper
I can't help but notice some moron put "Communists" in the keywords, and doubtless that same moron doesn't see the irony of Big Brother XP, of the antagonistic business precedent where what you bought and paid for isn't yours.
13 posted on 03/15/2005 8:16:52 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: Yardbird

That is why MS beat out Apple in the begining.
Gates loved computers bit he also loved money and being the best.


14 posted on 03/15/2005 8:17:02 PM PST by since1868
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To: Yardbird
Not really, it stagnates without a profit motive.

Dude, I beg to differ. I don't get up on Saturday mornings during election years to knock on doors for profit. I do it because I want to end abortion, stop gay marriage, and keep the gubmint from taking arms away from the citizenry. I don't think any of those qualify as profit. I've done it for 11 years and don't think I'll be stopping any time soon.
15 posted on 03/15/2005 8:17:27 PM PST by hispanichoosier
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To: Redcloak


Snicker ... what do they expect from a "free" product???? I think that the firefox developers are not getting satisfaction from their current compensation model. Maybe they should start charging for support.... HEE HEE!
16 posted on 03/15/2005 8:18:30 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: JoJo Gunn
Communists and OSS go together ... Read Stallman's (the founder of the OSS movement) web page: http://www.stallman.org/
17 posted on 03/15/2005 8:21:52 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper
Am I to take it that you're the one who placed the keyword?

If so, how do you feel about wearing your knees out to Gates? Can you imagine any other company where you need authorization from a fry cook to use what you bought with your hard earned cash?

Doesn't that bother you?

Since you think open sourcers are pinkos, which leash do you prefer?

18 posted on 03/15/2005 8:25:47 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Know what you mean. There're some days it's hard to tell Slashdot from DU.


19 posted on 03/15/2005 8:27:10 PM PST by Ex-Dem (40 F in March? Where's global warming when you need it...)
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To: JoJo Gunn


Since you are going along in that vein....

How do you like biting the pillow for your fellow OSS fanboys? Do they whisper sweetly to you first? Buy you flowers? Chocolate?
20 posted on 03/15/2005 8:29:17 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Yardbird

Did you find that on his website?


22 posted on 03/15/2005 8:32:45 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: ShadowAce

What can I say, I was surmising a month ago this sort of article would come sooner rather than later. I think Mozilla sucks. It locks up or shuts down when I click on a media link and slams shut whenever it encounters a page with a bunch of images or several large images.


23 posted on 03/15/2005 8:33:37 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper (You have a //cuckoo// God given right //Yeeeahrgh!!// to be an //Hello?// atheist)
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To: srm913
The tabbed function is divine.

Here you go.  AvantBrowser brings tabbed windows to Internet Explorer for FREE!


24 posted on 03/15/2005 8:34:35 PM PST by Incorrigible (immanentizing the eschaton)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Looks like it.


25 posted on 03/15/2005 8:35:08 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper (You have a //cuckoo// God given right //Yeeeahrgh!!// to be an //Hello?// atheist)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Ex-Dem

I think there is a deeper agenda behind the OSS crows that smells anti-capitalist -- especially since Soros is funding OSS initiatives:
from slash dot: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/14/1237206.shtml?tid=99
27 posted on 03/15/2005 8:43:19 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Ooooooh, Red Alert! Did I strike a nerve?

When Mozilla screws up, which can be royally, I say so. Check out my posting history.

I suggest that if you're going to post threads with the ultimate intent of lobbing grenades, then you'd better have a thicker skin, Little Precious.


28 posted on 03/15/2005 8:43:47 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: JoJo Gunn

I just thought I would sink to your level of discourse so we could communicate.

The OSS fanboys' (such as yourself) usual rejoinder is to call someone a microsoft kneepadder when they post something that does not agree with the OSS world view.

Can you refute the premise in the article with facts instead of mindless recycling of drivel. Please note, the article in post 1 is directly quoting a "core firefox developer" not a "microsoft representative"...
29 posted on 03/15/2005 8:49:25 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: hispanichoosier

I don't think your election time volunteering is altruism. It appears to me that you are operating on enlightened self-interest. You have a stake in keeping idiots like sKerry and the Hildebeast out of the white house. If they get in, little things like firefox problems would be the least of your worries.
30 posted on 03/15/2005 9:24:06 PM PST by GeorgiaFreeper (Hitlery does not have fat ankles. That's where the hooves show through above the foot prosthetics.)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper
I don't think your election time volunteering is altruism. It appears to me that you are operating on enlightened self-interest. You have a stake in keeping idiots like sKerry and the Hildebeast out of the white house.

Actually, it would more likely be in your rational self-interest -- if all that existed was the material -- than to work with a vile group that looks like a winner. It was a lot easier to go along with the Demothugs 10-15 years ago than stand out in the rain and fight them. And a lot of people who did go along wound up wealthy and powerful. Think Dan Rather. He spent most of his life being lionized by his peers and made tens of millions just for kissing lefty butt.

31 posted on 03/15/2005 10:02:32 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

Trust me, I can refute plenty.

I have more than once listed what's wrong with Mozilla, and have stated here and on the Mozilla site that I think that in some respects they don't know what in the hell they're doing. My biggest peeve is over a small but common sense thing - in Mozilla mail there’s no provision to set a default in saving mail as an .eml, and just what in the world is “all files”??? Plus, the Mozilla spell checker queries you over the spelling of “Mozilla” not being in the dictionary.

Images have no business being associated with the Downloads box. It’s pure stupidity seeing a box pop up after you save an image. The suite still does it, but you can select to not show the box at all with Firefox, fine and good until you download a program. (rolleyes)

Saving web pages in Mozilla is mostly useless. Just try saving this thread as a text file. Besides it’s not saving the thread title, it’ll save the text as an unformatted mess. People have clamoring for .mht’s for around 4 years now, to no avail. IE wins hands down here.

Every time someone at Mozilla breaks wind, they feel the need to bring out another version, which breaks most of the themes and extensions. They’re now worried about redesigning another Options box, which the themers are now trying to figure out how to update for. Who is the moron who thinks they need another redesign when there’s so many long standing bugs that needs fixing?

The cache has absolutely no protection, and most times empties if the browser crashes. That’s irritating for a dialup user. But it’s a feature, don’tcha know?

Java for Mozilla is, for me, a crash prone mess, and I can’t use it for NOAA weather radar sites. Java actually broke the MS Java on my machine, not a fault of Mozilla, but a testament that Sun programmers can’t even code an uninstaller that recognizes its own stuff. So again IE isn’t useless.

Profile corruption is a very common problem.

Loss of bookmarks is a very common problem.

The Mozilla “help” forum is highly populated by zit cragged prepubescent propeller heads, which the heads of Mozilla doesn’t seem to mind or know of, the moderators are by and large either eunuchs or kids themselves, so I won’t recommend the place to adults. I made the mistake of linking to it last year, when I was new to Mozilla, (with version 0.8) but I won’t make that mistake again.

The biggest bug of all, which took them about a year to address, was one they just fixed around the first of this year, a bug in the .EXE version where that for (luckily very few) who uninstalled Firefox, it would erase the whole damned Program Files folder!!!

The popup blocker and the ad blocker are THE main reasons I have stuck with Firefox. You won’t see me getting wet like a schoolgirl because the rose faded with them a while back, beginning with 0.9, which was a bona fide mess.

I’m no fanboi of them, nor of MS either. Both have a litany list of stupid things they have yet to address. With MS, however, I’m not the kind who has to have the latest and greatest processor and package of bugs (OS). For one thing I can’t afford it. I’m running a Celeron 800 mhz, Winduhs ME, and Gates has shown me in no uncertain terms he doesn’t give a flying damn about me as a customer. He’s like the RIAA and the MPAA, who sees me ass nothing but a thief, and I used to raise holy hell about all the Napster types. And just where did that get me? Screw ‘em all.

I suggest that you kneepadders recognize that not all Mozilla or Linux users are mindless fanbois, but only want what gives them the features they need or can afford or can technically use. ME comes with IE5.5, and just 6.0 with no service packs generally crashes my system. I can’t name the problem but can describe it - save the Favorites folder, for instance, to a CD. Any large amount of small files, where the progress bar zips by, causes Explorer to lock up. The same goes if you erase something from a formatted RW. All the filenames zip quickly by, and usually Explorer locks up. I’ve seen that happen maybe 5 times with 5.5 since I bought this computer in July of ‘01. In other words, I can’t run IE6, and IE7 is going to be for XP only, so what does a man like me do? Run out and buy another OS just for a frickin’ browser? Oh, but I’m a Commie pinko for being frugal and logical and not owing my soul to the Company Store, right?

Actually, more than once I’ve felt like throwing in the towel over computers in general, what with hackers and spammers being given pretty much free reign to do whatever they want, (the FTC is another bunch of feckless eunuchs), Gates trying to change the rules of business, the morons who look down their nose at me for not keeping up with the Jones’, ISP’s who bump you offline, blah blah.

And might I suggest you bite your tongue throwing the “Communist” word around especially if you use SpyBot or SpywareBlaster or HijackThis, etc. They’re all freebies, and the coders who sweat over them only ASK for donations, and where would we all be without THEIR generosity?


32 posted on 03/15/2005 10:22:17 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: JoJo Gunn
"The biggest bug of all, which took them about a year to address, was one they just fixed around the first of this year, a bug in the .EXE version where that for (luckily very few) who uninstalled Firefox, it would erase the whole damned Program Files folder!!!"

That happened to me.....but worse.

By mistake I installed Firefox to the root of the C:\ drive. Realizing what I had done I went and uninstalled it from the control panel.

Long story short. The uninstaller deleted EVERYTHING from C:\ that wasn't in use or protected, and I had to reinstall Windoze.

33 posted on 03/15/2005 10:37:16 PM PST by KoRn (~Halliburton Told Me......)
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To: GeorgiaFreeper; All
Looks like Firefox is heading down the tubes.

Myths and Clarifications

In the week since my now-infamous-and-slashdotted blog post, I've had a lot of discussions with a lot of people, and read a lot of uninformed and baseless assertions. Such is life, but hopefully this goes a long way to correcting a lot of false impressions people have built up.

And now, the myths:

  1. We're dooomed!

    Nope, sorry. We're going through a typical growth readjustment, and life in the fishbowl has actually focused us a little more. Having something to prove is generally motivational, and I believe that we're making a lot of moves in the right direction now.

  2. The absent peers are a bunch of slackers who don't care about Firefox!

    Not true. There's just other things in the realm of innovation that are pulling their attention.

    • Blake is working on something that he can't talk about, but it does involve Firefox's future path. Doing long-term R&D of new concepts is only going to help us move forward in the medium to long term (in the browser business that's still between 1-3 years). As I hear it, he's getting a lot of unfair flack for spending time on his startup's new project, but the reality is that he's jumping on an opportunity to do something innovative, that eventually will benefit Firefox in a big way.
    • Vlad is working on the mozStorage APIs and other things related to Lightning. This is his job, and will only serve to benefit everyone using xulrunner, including Firefox.
    • Brian (bryner) has been working on XForms for IBM. This is more of a general platform issue, but it does help us compete going forward, especially in the enterprise market.
    • Ben recently laid out a number of changes, as well as clarifying his role in the project going forward. While he's not working 150% of the time on Firefox, as he has in the past, he will continue to direct the project, and will be making more time for managing/driving releases, and building up new resources.
  3. There is no one working on Mozilla!

    Lots of people are working on Mozilla. Gecko/xulrunner has a lot of contributors, a lot more than Firefox itself, which is an app running on top of the Mozilla platform. This includes around 60 paid hackers spread across various companies, including MoFo itself.

  4. I'm leaving the Mozilla project and never looking back.

    Not true either. While I can't say at this point to what extent I will be contributing, I have no intent of leaving or abandoning the project. Being the only core Firefox hacker who doesn't stroll through the offices at MoFo I sometimes miss out on stuff that should be getting distributed. And when people aren't getting certain mailinglist bits, its hard to respond to concerns. Some things are in motion to try to correct this, but it will take time to establish things better. Running a geographically distributed project is hard, and we're still learning how to do that.

Myths and Clarifications
34 posted on 03/15/2005 10:38:33 PM PST by dread78645 (Sarcasm tags are for wusses.)
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To: KoRn

DAYum! Now I understand why they offer a zip file only.


35 posted on 03/15/2005 11:35:47 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: JoJo Gunn
I suggest that you kneepadders recognize that not all Mozilla or Linux users are mindless fanbois, but only want what gives them the features they need or can afford or can technically use.

Give it up. Who cares what these people think of Open Source. I am not a member of the Open Source community. But I use nice tools everyday in my PAYING job that were created by that community. Tools and alternatives that would not be otherwise available for many companies to enter a market, compete, and HIRE people. Among other things, Open Source lowers the barrier for entry into markets and provides cheap, easily accessible building blocks for smaller companies to provide solutions to customers.

I can create a solution with MySQL at home for nothing and provide a service for someone and get paid if I want to do that. I don't have to pay Oracle a gazillion dollars. Voila, the barrier to entry is reduced and anybody can create things. YAY. Thats a very conservative concept there, small businesses and individuals having the tools to help THEMSELVES succeed. So enough with the "Oh my god the commies are coming" FUD.

Now Oracle makes a damn good product and provide damn good support. Better than an Open Source tool can provide. They can provide a close reliable partnership. That is very important to some businesses and very much worth the money paid for their product. YAY. Glad to see it.

People are acting as if its a zero-sum game. Ridiculous.

Who cares what evangelistic detractors think. I could care less what anyone thinks of Firefox. I like it, I use it, I have no problems with it, and I won't be going back to IE and foaming at the mouth screeching about isn't going to scare me back.

Open Source really is here to stay, nobody is going to put the toothpaste back into the tube, and I think its pretty pointless to worry too much about the screeching.
36 posted on 03/16/2005 12:24:29 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Redcloak

I thought the end of Linux was when his sister Lucy took his blanket away.


37 posted on 03/16/2005 12:37:33 AM PST by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Redcloak

Hmm second most used desktop OS in the world, and dar close (if not) to second most Server operating system used)... What do you mean by 'did in'?


38 posted on 03/16/2005 7:24:14 AM PST by N3WBI3
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To: N3WBI3
Oops! I'm sorry... I see that I forgot to close my <sarcasm> tag.

My bad.

39 posted on 03/16/2005 7:34:06 AM PST by Redcloak (There is no "I" in team. But then again, there is no "us" in it either. There is "meat" however.)
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To: Arkinsaw
It’s not “pointless”.

Each and every Freeper is a computer user, of varying abilities and needs. I wouldn’t dream of posting a thread with the sole purpose of sowing discord, and sometimes the elitist shills ought to be taken down a notch.

Besides, it can be great fun.

40 posted on 03/16/2005 8:55:11 AM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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To: GeorgiaFreeper

And Bill Gates donates millions to abort babies in Africa through the UN and Planned Parenthood International. I guess all MS users love to aobrt poor african kids right?


41 posted on 03/16/2005 10:14:07 AM PST by N3WBI3
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To: Incorrigible
Avant Browser looks "too busy" for my taste. That thing has more windows than the Sears Tower!
42 posted on 03/16/2005 11:56:54 AM PST by jdm (Stockhausen, Kagel, Xenakis -- world capitals or avant-garde composers?)
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To: JoJo Gunn
Don't forget that the Acrobat plug-in takes forever to initialize.

Firefox has its problems, but it's still far better than IE. I especially like being able to easily write an extension to change the behavior any way I want.

43 posted on 03/19/2005 11:23:26 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

I never liked PDF files. To me they're bloated and clunky, and Reader 6 is crash prone, and I surely don't like how they force that goofy "my Ebooks" folder in My Documents, so I'm sticking with 5. Since it plugs into IE I just use IE when needed.

Because of the Java problems I've stayed away from plugins for Mozilla in general, only using Flash. I don't like Flash either, because it can sometimes be a CPU spiking mess. For about the last month I thought my trackball was going bad on me, because single clicks would turn into doubles, dragging wouldn't work smoothly, or even at all for several moments, but it was intermittent. I did a reinstall last Friday, (something I just like to do every now and then), and waited a couple of days before reinstalling Firefox, in case the problem was related to 1.01 just coming out, and just today put the Flash 7 plugin back, and so far no problems.

Mozilla has its ways, but so do other things. I can't count the times in two days where in IE that idiot box would popup asking me if I wanted to install and run the Flash plugin, and until it first loads into the cache you'll sit there on a dialup wondering what in the heck is on that site and why won't it load? People must be getting some kind of kickback from Macromedia. ;)


44 posted on 03/21/2005 9:17:10 PM PST by JoJo Gunn (More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. )
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