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To: Arnhart
Welcome to Free Republic!

The philosophical fears of the creationists, and how this fear drives them to self-righteously defend such bad scientific arguments, is something that many of us evolution-accepting freepers have been trying to explain to the creationist-freepers for years.

When the Discovery Institute started their crusade for ID, I was taken aback at their stated aims to defeat naturalism in favor of supernaturalism in the scientific arena - in order to save society from nihilism. Yikes!

Their fundamental premise is that the natural world gives us no objective criteria by which to decide an act is "good" or "bad". IOW, they accept large parts of the left-postmodernist view of reality, where truth is merely a social construction. In this kind of subjectivist world, the major moral struggles are between interest groups, all of whom are driven by a belief in self-serving arguments which reality will never judge to be true or false. In such a world, the victors will always be simply whichever interest group was most ruthless in pursuing its goals.

So I can understand their fears - given their premises. But in fact the world is governed by objective reality, and reality serves as the final, objective judge for which moral system is best for us to follow. (Otherwise, nobody could ever learn anything from history!)

For the first two whole years of the DI's intelligent design project, they were quite proud & upfront about their motivations. The blistering prologue to the infamous Wedge Document was lifted whole from their about page, for example.

In your article you have this exchange:

We must note that at least in the USA, there are two quite different branches of conservatism, one espousing religious fundamentalism and the other classical economic liberalism. They have almost nothing in common intellectually and are simply politically linked by historical events. Arnhart does not stress this point.

There surely is a tension between the libertarian conservatism that begins with Smith and the traditionalist conservatism that begins with Burke, a tension that fuels much debate among conservatives. But in my book, I argue for a fundamental agreement between libertarianism and traditionalism, which is suggested by the intellectual friendship between Smith and Burke. Libertarians and traditionalists generally agree on a realist view of human nature as imperfecti ble and on the need for the evolved, spontaneous orders of family life, private property, and limited government as the basis for ordered liberty. Darwinian science helps to explain how those spontaneous orders conform to the evolved nature of human beings.

So, when exactly did the traditionalist strain of the conservative movement go off the deep end into what seems like right-wing postmodernism?
25 posted on 09/17/2005 1:40:04 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: my post)
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To: PatrickHenry

The ping list needs to see this...


27 posted on 09/17/2005 1:43:47 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Seeing What's Next by Christensen, et.al.)
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To: jennyp
So, when exactly did the traditionalist strain of the conservative movement go off the deep end into what seems like right-wing postmodernism?

It's a result of Nixon's "Southern Strategy." Before, almost all creationists that I knew were Democrats; they became Republicans without changing any of their attitudes (anti-science, anti-business, pro-big government....)

34 posted on 09/17/2005 1:54:19 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: jennyp; Arnhart
[Libertarians and traditionalists generally agree on a realist view of human nature as imperfecti ble and on the need for the evolved, spontaneous orders of family life, private property, and limited government as the basis for ordered liberty. Darwinian science helps to explain how those spontaneous orders conform to the evolved nature of human beings.]



Hence my tagline, which is more than just some amusing slogan, as it is derived from a combination of game theory, religious, moral, and philosophical behavior, and scientific observations of these behavior among animal populations and how it benefits them.

Strict interpretation of Judeo Christian sacred text would seem to advocate for "the golden rule", which could be paraphrased as "treat others with kindness and generosity regardless of how they treat you".

There is also "the iron rule" (which is espoused by dictators and jihadists) and it could be paraphrased "treat others with cruelty and selfishness regardless of how they treat you.

"The silver rule" is a variation of "the golden rule", which provides an exemption that advises "be indifferent to those who treat you with cruelty".

And "the brazen rule" can be paraphrased as "treat others as they have treated you, repaying either kindness or cruelty with the same."


Modern evolutionary theory seems to suggest that animal (including human) populations benefit the greatest number of individuals within the population when "the brazen rule" is followed, along with a modification that serves to break up an unending vendetta in which an occasional cruelty is forgiven, if you believe the other individual is willing to reform. Some call this "the gold plated brazen rule".

This leads to the interesting idea that the science of evolution may actually have something to say about morality.

Here's a link to some pioneering ideas relating cooperation with biological evolution: http://pscs.physics.lsa.umich.edu/Software/CC/ECHome/ECCitationClassic.html
41 posted on 09/17/2005 2:50:47 PM PDT by spinestein (Forget the Golden Rule. Remember the Brazen Rule.)
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To: jennyp

But in fact the world is governed by objective reality, and reality serves as the final, objective judge for which moral system is best for us to follow. (Otherwise, nobody could ever learn anything from history!)



What experience and history teach is this -- that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles. - HEGEL


161 posted on 09/19/2005 10:40:08 AM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: jennyp
Their fundamental premise is that the natural world gives us no objective criteria by which to decide an act is "good" or "bad". IOW, they accept large parts of the left-postmodernist view of reality, where truth is merely a social construction.

I see. For example, those stupid creationists believe that homosexuality is wrong, only because some old dusty book says so.

The elightened scientific community, however, after much study guided by Darwinian principles, has decided that homosexuality is probably hereditary, and pretending that a rectum serves the same purpose as a vagina is perfectly natural. It's obvious, of course, that homosexuals would be the "fittest" among society, and therefore reproduce and, oh nevermind.

The liberal view of morality is the predictable result of morality by politicized science. Purely objective science is an elusive ideal.

175 posted on 10/07/2005 4:22:22 PM PDT by watchin (Facts irritate liberals)
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To: jennyp
"Their fundamental premise is that the natural world gives us no objective criteria by which to decide an act is "good" or "bad". IOW, they accept large parts of the left-postmodernist view of reality, where truth is merely a social construction."

An interesting yet twisted view of reality. A fascinating attempt to turn the tables, much like the dems wailing about conservative judicial activists.

The truth, of course, is that "the left-postmodernist view of reality, where truth is merely a social construction" has tossed aside all traditional authority structures, and is based squarely on the "fundamental premise is that the natural world," rather than any religion or <gasp> "god," does in fact "give us objective criteria by which to decide an act is "good" or "bad"".

Predictably, as we "discover" these criteria, society contructs new definitions for "good" and "bad", and the two gradually switch places. The baby killer, the foul-mouthed thug, and the sexually perverse become "courageous moral trailblazers." Those who would dare point out the immorality of it all are "self-righteous, intolerant bigots."

Here's why I say it's predictable - it is, and always will be, the way of sinful man:

Isaiah 5:20-21
20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
The moral mess we are in today has been built by liberals boldly acting on the foundation of evolution and the denial of any God/lawgiver.
178 posted on 10/08/2005 10:58:57 AM PDT by watchin (Facts irritate liberals)
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To: Arnhart
I'm curious to know if you agree with my analysis of the DI's motivation for pushing ID in post 25. AFAIK, they've never called themselves postmodernists, but right at the start of their fight they sure do seem to capitulate an essential premise to postmodernism - its moral subjectivism & the lack of objective truth.

When they plead for a deus ex machina god to declare a "right" & a "wrong" for us, they strike me as people who agree with postmodernism, but merely wish it weren't true. They're in the "bargaining with God" stage of mourning over the loss of objective truth. (As an Objectivist I find this capitulation to subjectivism tragically foolish. :-/ )

183 posted on 10/08/2005 4:57:08 PM PDT by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: my sterling prose)
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