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Captain Randy W. Stone: Article 32 Summary
Defend Our Marines ^ | May 18, 2007 | David Allender

Posted on 05/19/2007 5:49:37 AM PDT by RedRover

Key witnesses and testimony

Lt. William Kallop

Platoon CO, the only officer on the scene during most of the incident. The lieutenant (granted immunity) testified just prior to the 3/1's third deployment to Iraq.

Quote: “I thought the Marines had operated as best they could in an uncertain environment,” Kallop said. “I had faith in my squad leader, who had told me what happened and why.”

[Sources: Marines Corp Times, San Diego Union Tribune, New York Times]

____________________________

1st Sgt. Albert Espinosa

As Kilo Company's first sergeant, Espinosa testified that one week after the Nov. 19, 2005, incident, he initiated a conversation with Stone at the battalion's command center in Haditha because, "I wasn't happy with the answers I was getting. I thought we need to do an investigation."
Stone told him that a probe was taking place at the battalion level, Espinosa said, later adding that a sergeant major also said it was being addressed at a higher level.

Espinosa said he thought that statements should have been taken from the Marines linked to the killing because that was what had happened in a 2003 incident when a 12-year-old Iraqi girl was slain. Espinosa assisted in that investigation.

Under questioning from Stone's attorney Charles Gittins, Espinosa said he was unaware of what reports were being filed at the battalion level.

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

Sgt. Sanick Dela Cruz

A corporal at the time of the incident, Sgt. Dela Cruz was granted immunity to testify. He was not involved in the house clearing, and his testimony only effects Sgt. Wuterich.

Quote: "They were just standing, looking around, had hands up," Dela Cruz said. "Then I saw one of them drop in the middle. I didn't know what was going on."

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

Maj. Gen. Richard Huck

Former commanding general of the 2nd Marine Division based at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, who at the time of the incident, was in charge of troops in Haditha. The general testified via video hookup from the Pentagon.

Quote: Huck commanded 19,000 U.S. military personnel at the time and 12,000 Iraqi soldiers and said he relied on staff reports of battle incidents such as in Haditha. "If someone felt there was a need to investigate, it could have come up from a myriad of places," he said.

[Sources: North County Times, Associated Press, Reuters]

____________________________

Sgt. Maj. Edward Sax

Testified that he only learned that civilians had died in Haditha when he saw the Sgt. Wuterich interview on 60 Minutes.

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

1st Lt. Adam Mathes

Kilo Co. executive officer.

Quote: “My impression of Sergeant Wuterich is that he is a very decent, quiet, mature guy. I didn’t have any reason to question their integrity.”

[Source: Reuters]

____________________________

Capt. Jeffery Dinsmore

Intelligence officer, 3rd Battalion.

Quote: “The reality is then and the reality is now, you let loose marines in a T.I.C. against a hostile situation, taking small-arms fire, they don’t have the training nor do they have the presence of mind to differentiate between civilians and insurgents. It stinks.”

[Source: Reuters, San Diego Union Tribune, New York Times, North County Times]

____________________________

Maj. Dana Hyatt

Civilian affairs officer, 3rd Battalion. He was given immunity to testify.

[Source: Associated Press, San Diego Union Tribune]

____________________________

Col. John Ewers

Legal affairs officer, assigned by the Marine Corps to assist Army Maj. Gen. Eldon Bargewell in a review of how commanders responded to Haditha.

Quote: "[Capt. Stone] didn't cover himself with glory ... but without being asked by his commander to do an investigation, I didn't think it rose to the level of criminal dereliction."

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

Maj. Samuel Carrasco

Operations officer, 3rd Battalion.

[Source: North County Times, Associated Press]

____________________________

Maj. Kevin Gonzales

Executive officer, 3rd Battalion.

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

Capt. Randy W. Stone

The accused gave unsworn testimony in his defense.

Quote:"I have never lied and have worked at all times to assist as best I could to shed light on what I knew and when I knew it. The most frustrating thing is the reality that even looking at this whole matter through 20/20 hindsight, I know I was trying to help.
"My firm belief that there was no law of armed conflict violation was the foundation for what actions I did take as well as action I did not take."

[Source: North County Times]

____________________________

And in closing...

From the Associated Press:

Prosecutors portrayed Stone as a meek novice who overlooked the killings in an attempt to gain favor with the other Marines. In his closing argument, Lt. Col. Paul Atterbury said that Stone knew women and children were killed in their homes but that he did nothing in response.

"The battalion judge advocate has a duty to make sure his Marines do not become desensitized to the mortally bruising combat environment that is Al Anbar, Iraq," Lt. Col. Atterbury said.

Defense attorney Charles Gittins said that the prosecution's case was based on the assumption that Stone knew the killings were wrong, but that prosecutors had the luxury of hindsight. More senior Marines saw no need to investigate the deaths because they were deemed to have been a lawful consequence of combat, he said.

"He had no more knowledge about the deaths than the division commander, who was actually briefed by the battalion commander," Gittins said.

Lt. Col. Atterbury said it was irrelevant that Stone's superiors saw no need for an investigation.

From the New York Times:

The presiding officer, Maj. Thomas McCann, seemed disconcerted about the testimony he had heard from several officers, from the general in charge of the Second Marine Division down to the first lieutenant whose men killed 24 civilians in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005. Several officers described civilian deaths as unfortunate but justifiable if they occurred during combat.

On Friday Major McCann, an experienced Marine lawyer, interjected some unsettling questions about how many civilian deaths it would take to constitute a violation of military regulations.

Alluding to Haditha, he asked, “At what point do we have to scratch our heads that we killed a lot more civilians than enemy?”

Because so many witnesses had testified that civilian deaths from “combat action” need not be investigated, Major McCann said, “I’m trying to figure out what authority they are citing.”

Maj. Carroll J. Connolly...a lawyer for the Marine regiment commanded then by Col. Stephen W. Davis, said he saw no need to investigate the civilian deaths in Haditha because they had come during combat with enemy fighters.

When Major McCann, the investigating officer, asked what the legal basis was for drawing that conclusion, Major Connolly, who was granted immunity from prosecution for his testimony, said he could not think of any.

From the North County Times:

...a prosecutor contended that Stone needed to be held accountable for failure to investigate a suspected violation of law, a suspicion that didn't arise until several weeks later when a Time magazine reporter said he had reason to believe a massacre had taken place.

"The evidence suggests he didn't do anything," Lt. Col. Paul Atterbury said of Stone. "The questions weren't asked (by Stone) of the right Marines."

The prosecutor also contended that Stone needed to serve as a moral compass for the battalion and therefore should have known to conduct at least a preliminary inquiry....

The case boils down to accountability, and Stone failed to carry out his job, the prosecutor said.

McCann also could consider additional charges of filing a false official statement for an e-mail Stone sent in late December to another Marine officer in which some of what he knew wasn't included, Atterbury contended, adding that a charge of conduct unbecoming an officer also could be levied.

Stone's attorney, Charles Gittins, said those suggestions typified the government's case, comparing the charging decision to a dartboard at which prosecutors blindly threw darts and filed criminal accusations on the basis of where the missiles landed.

"This entire case is an illusion of the truth," Gittins said during his closing argument. "This whole thing stinks -- this can't be the way the Marine Corps does business."

None of the testimony from government witnesses showed that Stone knew anything beyond the first account given by the Marines who would ultimately face murder charges in the killing, Gittins said. That account indicated that the civilians were "collateral damage" killed during the course of a combat action and no investigation was necessary.

The attorney said that if his client is guilty, legal officers and other Marine commanders far up the chain of command are similarly guilty. Three other officers, including the former battalion commander, Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, face similar charges.

____________________________

So those are the facts regarding the first Haditha hearing. My prediction is that the case against Capt. Randy W. Stone will not go to a court marital. I predict that charges will be dropped sometime in June or July, after the enlisted men's Article 32s.

David Allender
Defend Our Marines


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: defendourmarines; haditha; iraq
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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For a fact sheet on the charges against Capt. Randy W. Stone, click at the link.

The national media pretty much ignored the first of the Haditha hearings. I thought it would be a service to pull together all the testimony in one place for easy reference.

Unless it’s delayed again, the next hearing will be Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani on May 30th. The first hearing for an enlisted man will be LCpl. Justin Sharratt on June 11th.

1 posted on 05/19/2007 5:49:40 AM PDT by RedRover
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To: RedRover

Thanks for posting this.


2 posted on 05/19/2007 5:54:44 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Duncan Hunter in 2008!)
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To: 4woodenboats; aculeus; American Cabalist; AmericanYankee; AndrewWalden; Antoninus; AliVeritas; ...

3 posted on 05/19/2007 5:54:50 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: Bigg Red; Girlene

My pleasure, Bigg. I should give a hat tip to Girlene who hepped, as they say in Dixie.


4 posted on 05/19/2007 5:59:18 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover

Me Lie Too is falling like a Frenchman’s rifle.

Pray for W and Our Marines


5 posted on 05/19/2007 6:23:28 AM PDT by bray (The co-clintons freed more terrorists than they killed)
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To: RedRover

Red - as usual you did a fabulous job pulling all of the info together. McCann’s comments worry me but based on the testimony, I don’t see how a court martial could go forward.


6 posted on 05/19/2007 6:26:03 AM PDT by Chickenhawk Warmonger (The Media Lied & Soldiers Died)
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To: RedRover

Red, that wasn’t much “hepping” on my part. You have put together a great summary of the whole witness list/case!

In reviewing this list, there really aren’t too many witnesses for the prosecution. Dela Cruz I guess is a prosecution witness, but I’m not sure how relevant his changing testimony was to Capt. Stone. I guess the prosecutors just wanted some headlines?

Witness after witness at Capt. Stone’s hearing indicate that noone saw a reason to investigate. It took a Times reporter to harrass Marine leadership with inane accusations like ‘4 men were herded into a closet and mowed down’ to get the ball rolling.


7 posted on 05/19/2007 6:31:59 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover
I thought it would be a service to pull together all the testimony in one place for easy reference.

You thought right! Thanks much for doing this...it is a tremendous help.

Also noted that throughout the summary the phrase was "15 civilians" was used. However, the good old NYSlimes had this to say:
whose men killed 24 civilians in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005

Lest ye forget...that is THEIR story and they are sticking with it!
A lie told often enough..........

8 posted on 05/19/2007 6:35:28 AM PDT by Just A Nobody (PISSANT for President '08 - NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: RedRover
Thanks for the summary of witnesses.
Hmmmm. Must have been one hell of a large closet to fit 4 men into then "spray them with bullets", and the little girl must have had a bad ear ache and felt she should not go to school, and just lie in bed and hold her ears.
9 posted on 05/19/2007 6:51:37 AM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: Girlene; RedRover

Sacha Macha you work well together! Thanks.


10 posted on 05/19/2007 6:55:33 AM PDT by lilycicero
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To: lilycicero; RedRover

I have a question. The prosecution keeps saying that Stone should have made an investigation. From what I can tell, a report of the incident was made, pictures of the scenes taken, relevant intel from a drone and radio communication were available. There was an investigation (or pulling together of relevant info), just not an accusatory one.

What kind of an “investigation” are they talking about? Is there some formal, legal, documented process that the prosecution is referring to? This has never been explained in the articles. IOW, did Stone not fill out form “AB123” that requires “steps 5,6, and 7” to be initiated and followed up?


11 posted on 05/19/2007 7:17:19 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover
Thanks for your hard work in putting this excellent summary together, Red.

My prediction is that the case against Capt. Randy W. Stone will not go to a court marital.

I agree...Lt. Col. Paul Atterbury and presiding officer Maj. Thomas McCann can make remarks and wonder why certain actions were or were not taken and whether other charges should have been brought against Capt. Randy Stone but from the testimony by many witnesses called at the hearing it doesn't seem a courts-martial is warranted.

Our system of justice requires evidence to be shown or testified to to convict a person of a crime, not the feelings of the prosecutor or the presiding officer.

12 posted on 05/19/2007 7:41:28 AM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: All
If you would like to help with the civilian lawyer’s legal fees for the
Haditha Marines you can do so by going to these sites.

Defend Our Marines

Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt

SSgt. Frank Wuterich

Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani

Marine Defense Fund


Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

13 posted on 05/19/2007 7:42:37 AM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: Girlene

This is just a guess about an “investigation”. The prosecution probably wanted Stone to talk to each of the Marines alone who were involved and see if their accounts matched of what had happened.
If nobody felt the ROE was ignored, then there wouldn’t have been a need for question and answer session.

Fr Mail


14 posted on 05/19/2007 7:45:06 AM PDT by lilycicero (Don't mess with Girlene.)
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To: All; jazusamo; Chickenhawk Warmonger; Girlene; Just A Nobody; freema; pinkpanther111; lilycicero; ..
I want to be sure that no one misses something. It could be what finally undoes this case and Time magazine's jihad against the Marines.

On Feb. 12, 2006, Maj. Gen. Huck learned in an e-mail from Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, that a Time magazine reporter asked about allegations including one that "four young men were herded into a closet and sprayed with bullets."

Now notice that Major Hyatt testified that four of the Iraqis killed inside the houses were insurgents.

Those are the same four men.

They were killed in the third house by LCpl. Sharratt and Sgt. Wuterich.

On June 11th, at LCpl. Sharratt's hearing, we'll finally get many more details about the engagement in this house with these four men. They were not "herded into a closet" and they engaged the Marines.

I'd be enjoying this, if it weren't for the mental anguish of the accused and their families. Regardless, I'm looking to the 11th when we'll finally get the facts on the record.

The diagram below shows how I believe the engagement at the third house went down. If anyone from Time magazine is lurking, you can use this free of charge...


15 posted on 05/19/2007 8:04:15 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover

Good reminder! I’m curious why noone asked LCpl Sharratt and Sgt. Wuterich about the incident with the 4 insurgents before jumping feet first into an investigation. That was a pretty inflammatory claim by the Iraqis. It might have put things into perspective before launching blindly into two concurrent investigations (Bargewell and NCIS).


16 posted on 05/19/2007 8:13:11 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover
If anyone from Time magazine is lurking, you can use this free of charge...

LOL!! I don't think anyone from Time will be beating on your door for you to sign a release.

Good point about the testimony that will be coming out at LCpl. Sharratt's hearing. I'm anxious to hear what the prosecution witnesses (if they have any) have to say about the AK-47's.

17 posted on 05/19/2007 8:19:04 AM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: Girlene

They did ask Sharratt and Wuterich—through the thugs at NCIS.

When Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli ordered the investigation, no one at division or regiment had any fond feelings for Sharratt or Wuterich. Unfair though it would have been, I think the brass was mad as hell at those ant-like creatures far below them who caused all the trouble.

You see the result of the battalion commander sticking up for his guys.

I truly believe that the brass just felt that throwing the Haditha Marines to the wolves was the best way to make the problem go away (for them).


18 posted on 05/19/2007 8:25:15 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: lilycicero

Thanks, lily. I wonder if interviewing Marines after combat is standard procedure when civlians are killed, and if that was part of Capt. Stone’s training. Capt. Stone had only been in Iraq for a couple/three months prior to the Haditha incident. The prosecution keeps saying Capt. Stone should have done more, but either the articles leave it out, or the prosecution never says, what that “more” part actually is.


19 posted on 05/19/2007 8:29:41 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene

I guess the point of Dela Cruz’s testimony was to try to prove that bad stuff went on and Capt. Stone did nothing to root out the Dreadful Crime.


20 posted on 05/19/2007 8:31:32 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: lilycicero; Girlene

Girlene’s the Gomer. I’m the Goober.


21 posted on 05/19/2007 8:41:03 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: Girlene

We’ll hear a lot more about the “failure to investigate” at the Lt. Col. Chessani hearing. I bet Brian Rooney, Chessani’s attorney, is looking forward to it.


22 posted on 05/19/2007 8:47:11 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover
Case frigen closed. Now. Do the Marines and or other military JAG officers have the courage to just stop *ucking around with our Marines. I hope general Mattis looks at his time piece and sees allowing this whole affair to go on as long as it has, is not in anyones interest, other then far left libs and some Iraqi and other insurgents.
Time Magazine hopefully will be finally scorched on this crap. Their clown crew along with their management must start seeing there are ramifications on reporting crap, especially when it comes to bringing down innocent American military that serve with honor and total commitment to their mission goals.
And Blurtha had better start getting some scornful notes from his colleagues, as how he totally acted out of line.
23 posted on 05/19/2007 9:27:24 AM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: RedRover
When Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli ordered the investigation, no one at division or regiment had any fond feelings for Sharratt or Wuterich. Unfair though it would have been, I think the brass was mad as hell at those ant-like creatures far below them who caused all the trouble.

Well, unfortunately, war is messy. War with a combination insurgency/terrorists is messier, yet.

You see the result of the battalion commander sticking up for his guys.

Yes, Chessani got thrown to the wolves like those underneath him because he refused to bow to a Times reporter. When two of his officers received a forwarded e-mail from Tim McGirk, they indicated an investigation should be started even though the questions/accusations were worthless. They were willing to investigate crazy claims, Chessani was not. Chessani got charged for standing up for his men, in my mind.

I hope Brian Rooney has a field day with these prosecutors and their "failure to investigate" charges. Failure to investigate baseless claims by a Times reporter and Iraqis who may have been mixed up with the insurgency. Sheesh!
24 posted on 05/19/2007 9:29:55 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: RedRover

Women and children in the third house? Massacred?


25 posted on 05/19/2007 10:37:31 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: RedRover

I guess the point of Dela Cruz’s testimony (dropped charges) was to try to prove that bad stuff went on and Capt. Stone did nothing to root out the Dreadful Crime.

They’ve got him by the balls....but it ain’t over yet and that boy was taught to FIGHT.


26 posted on 05/19/2007 10:40:48 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Girlene; lilycicero; RedRover

Regarding your question, Girl, about interviewing Marines after combat being standard procedure when civilians are killed.

In the last days of this hearing there were comments made on the record that NO ONE knows what the standard is here when it comes to numbers of killed civilians.


27 posted on 05/19/2007 10:43:00 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Girlene; lilycicero; RedRover

Regarding your question, Girl, about interviewing Marines after combat being standard procedure when civilians are killed.

In the last days of this hearing there were comments made on the record that NO ONE knows what the standard is here when it comes to numbers of killed civilians.


28 posted on 05/19/2007 10:43:05 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Girlene

Bumpin’ it, GIRLENE!


29 posted on 05/19/2007 10:44:50 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: 1stbn27; 2111USMC; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; 68 grunt; A.A. Cunningham; ASOC; AirForceBrat23; Ajnin; ...

SUMMARY PING


30 posted on 05/19/2007 10:46:30 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema

It’s confusing because Sgt. Wuterich’s fire team entered four houses—three of which ended up with dead Iraqis inside.

So people (including me) talk about the “third house” as meaning the third house with casualties.

The women and children in the house in the diagram above weren’t harmed and lived to make up tales about what they never saw.


31 posted on 05/19/2007 11:15:01 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover

Well, shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite, Red. Where’s the massacre, eh? /sarc


32 posted on 05/19/2007 11:23:22 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema; RedRover; smoothsailing; jazusamo; Girlene; lilycicero

As follows from a book review by Art Winslow:

Writing from Iraq for Vanity Fair last November, in a posting titled “Rules of Engagement,” journalist William Langewiesche began with the Euphrates and enumerated the towns strung along it in Al Anbar province: Fallujah, Ramadi, Hit, Haditha. Of the last, he noted, “Snipers permitting, you can walk it top to bottom in less than an hour, allowing time enough to stone the dogs. Before the American invasion, it was known as an idyllic spot, where families came from as far away as Baghdad to while away their summers splashing in the river and sipping tea in the shade of trees. No longer, of course. Now, all through Al Anbar, and indeed the Middle East, Haditha is known as a city of death, or more simply as a name, a war cry against the United States.”

Vanity Fair, which was perspicacious enough to hire Langewiesche away from his distinguished perch at the Atlantic, has just won a National Magazine Award for “Rules of Engagement,” a chronicle of the November 2005 killing of 24 Iraqi men, women and children in Haditha by U.S. Marines in the aftermath of a roadside bombing.

http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-bk-winslow20may20,0,5037260.story?coll=la-home-middleright
_____________________________________
Scroll down to the REPORTING and PUBLIC INTEREST CATEGORIES
http://www.magazine.org/Editorial/National_Magazine_Awards/Winners_and_Finalists/


33 posted on 05/19/2007 11:39:50 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema
Vanity Fair, .... has just won a National Magazine Award for “Rules of Engagement,” a chronicle of the November 2005 killing of 24 Iraqi men, women and children in Haditha ,,,

Well, isn't that just dandy? So glad this whole Haditha thingy is working out for all these reporters, magazines, media outlets. /sarc.


34 posted on 05/19/2007 11:55:12 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene

Alternate universe. We are two Americas.


35 posted on 05/19/2007 12:36:34 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema

Seems to be a few little inconsistancies on the part of the prosecution. Ahemm.


36 posted on 05/19/2007 1:55:39 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: Girlene

In vain!


37 posted on 05/19/2007 2:50:43 PM PDT by lilycicero (SSgt Frank Wuterich wins award for Vanity Fair.)
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To: Marine_Uncle

38 posted on 05/19/2007 4:34:01 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema

ROTF/LOL/LMAO!


39 posted on 05/19/2007 6:45:19 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: RedRover
One of the very 1st things I had heard about this case was the 4 terrorists in a closet, with the accompanying denial that that would be possible, as it would have been hard just to get one of them in that closet.

I don't remember where I 1st heard that, but I figured the charges were BS then, and there's no doubt they are now.

That attorney's threats and statements sound like an old hen talking dirt about her neighbors - he's flailing, bad.

If that's all they got, this should be over quick.

40 posted on 05/19/2007 7:05:01 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (If Amnesty is the Question, Filibuster is the answer. Build Fence Now Talk Later)
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To: 4woodenboats; Girlene

Girl, do you remember where this business about the four men in the closet was reported? I meant to go back and look for it but couldn’t get the time today (too busy being appreciative!).


41 posted on 05/19/2007 7:14:52 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: freema

LOL!

Where do you get all these pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


42 posted on 05/19/2007 7:34:42 PM PDT by pinkpanther111 (They were doing their jobs!!! Defend our Marines)
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To: pinkpanther111; Marine_Uncle

That one could be had at bonesuckin.com

They also have hot nuts.


43 posted on 05/19/2007 7:48:54 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: pinkpanther111

It’s a gift? LOL!


44 posted on 05/19/2007 7:49:30 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema
Those links lead right to at least 3 sickening reports by Duffy, McGirk and the Insurgent/humanitarian/student/whatever.

I could only read a few paragraphs, got up, and went and sanded for a few hours....

45 posted on 05/19/2007 10:29:08 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (If Amnesty is the Question, Filibuster is the answer. Build Fence Now Talk Later)
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To: 4woodenboats

Were you sanding a patch over where you kicked the wall?


46 posted on 05/20/2007 5:03:40 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: RedRover; 4woodenboats

The original claim came from the first article by McGirk in Times Magazine http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html

...”The Marines raided a third house, which belongs to a man named Ahmed Ayed. One of Ahmed’s five sons, Yousif, who lived in a house next door, told Time that after hearing a prolonged burst of gunfire from his father’s house, he rushed over. Iraqi soldiers keeping watch in the garden prevented him from going in. “They told me, ‘There’s nothing you can do. Don’t come closer, or the Americans will kill you too.’ The Americans didn’t let anybody into the house until 6:30 the next morning.” Ayed says that by then the bodies were gone; all the dead had been zipped into U.S. body bags and taken by Marines to a local hospital morgue. “But we could tell from the blood tracks across the floor what happened,” Ayed claims. “The Americans gathered my four brothers and took them inside my father’s bedroom, to a closet. They killed them inside the closet.” “...

I’m not sure when the first disclaimer came out. I didn’t realize until reading this again that Yousif Ayed (the guy you quote in your schematic) was the BROTHER of the four killed in that last house. He had plenty of reasons to lie about their status: 1. Prevent the Americans from tieing him in with insurgents, 2. Try to get compensation for 4 Brothers.


47 posted on 05/20/2007 5:40:23 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene; 4woodenboats
In the article you linked (regarding the house in question)...

The military has a different account of what transpired. According to officials familiar with the investigation, the Marines broke into the third house and found a group of 10 to 15 women and children. The troops say they left one Marine to guard that house and pushed on to the house next door, where they found four men, one of whom was wielding an AK-47. A second seemed to be reaching into a wardrobe for another weapon, the officials say. The Marines shot both men dead; the military's initial report does not specify how the other two men died.

The Marines deny that any of the men were killed in the closet, which they say is too small to fit one adult male, much less four. According to the military officials, the series of raids took five hours and left at least 23 people dead. In all, two AK-47s were discovered. The military has classified the 15 victims in the first two houses as noncombatants. It considers the four men killed in the fourth house, as well as four youths killed by the Marines near the site of the roadside bombing, as enemy fighters. The question facing naval detectives is whether the Marines' killing of 15 noncombatants was an act of legitimate self-defense or negligent homicide. Military sources say that if the ncis finds evidence of wrongdoing, U.S. commanders in Iraq will decide whether to pursue legal action against the Marines.

48 posted on 05/20/2007 5:58:49 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover; Girlene; All
According to officials familiar with the investigation, the Marines broke into the third house and found a group of 10 to 15 women and children.

10 TO 15

LIVE

WOMEN AND CHILDREN

DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A MASSACRE

49 posted on 05/20/2007 6:52:17 AM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema

That’s exactly why the Iraqis made up the story that Marines seperated the men, took them next door, herded them into a closet, and then killed them there. (Does any of that even make sense to Timmy?)

Of course, the “witnesses” didn’t see any of this happen but who are we to stand between McGirk and a cover story in Time?


50 posted on 05/20/2007 8:16:50 AM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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